Interview with Emma Robinson

Emma, thank you so so much for joining me today and really, genuinely delighted to have you on the show.

Emma Robinson: 2:46

That’s lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me

Emma Dhesi: 2:48

A pleasure. A pleasure. Well wonder if you wouldn’t mind just starting off telling us about your journey to writing and what brought you to where you are?

Emma Robinson: 2:57

Absolutely. So this is a story I’ve talked quite a lot. I do go into primary schools a little bit. And I tell the students there that I’ve wanted to be a writer since I was their age. So probably a lot like the listeners to your podcast, I think that urge to become a writer that starts quite early.

And for me, I’ve got a vivid memory of being in a primary school classroom when I was around nine or 10. And there was a book by a girl called Jane Fisher, who was about the same age as me that had been published. I don’t know if people remember them.

They’re all about fruit and vegetables. And having always been an avid reader. That was the moment I think that I thought hang on a minute, maybe I could do this, maybe I could be a writer.

So I guess from that point on, I’ve been stories throughout sort of Secondary School University, I was always writing bits and pieces of stories and never really finishing anything. So I’d be inspired to do about three or four chapters.

And then it would cut, you know, life would get in the way. And then as I approached my 40th birthday, I thought well, actually, I need to put up or shut up, I need to actually write this book that I’ve been talking about writing for a long time.

Or I need to stop saying I’m going to do it. So that’s what I did the year I turned 40 I actually finished what was a very, very rough first draft of my first novel, the undercover mother. And in many ways, I think although it taken me a long time to reach that point.

I don’t think you know, by that time I had young children a job, a lot of friends you know, but you get to nearly 40 We’ve accumulated hopefully a lot of friends.

And I don’t think actually I would have had the material to finish a novel until I’ve got to that point so that’s what I tell myself anyway when I explain why it took me so long but yeah, so that that was the the first finished novel.

Emma Dhesi: 4:48

Oh, gosh, your story is very similar to mine in the it was getting towards that 40 mark and thoughts myself. Do it or move on? Yeah. Do that first draft or less? Go.

Emma Robinson: 5:00

Absolutely, absolutely.

Emma Dhesi: 5:02

But so I can absolutely relate to that comment that you made about, you know, starting lots of projects and never finishing that was something that I experienced.

And I think it did take me to get to be a bit older before I had that patience to sit down and just get on with it.

Emma Robinson: 5:21

Yeah. Yeah. And it is that getting on with it isn’t I mean, I think the best writing advice I was ever given was just get in the chair and write, you know, because that’s even now, you know, I’m about I’m currently writing my ninth book.

And even now, you know, I’ll wash up all tied to my husband said the house is never as tidy as when I’m doing a first draft.

But you know, that’s essentially it, isn’t it? It’s just sitting there and going and going until you get it done.

Emma Dhesi: 5:46

But yeah, yeah. And it sounds so simple.

Emma Robinson: 5:50

Exactly that.

Emma Dhesi: 5:52

And you mentioned your husband there. I know that you’ve got a busy family life, two kids and a dog.

And so how do you balance the family life with the writing and promotional work?

You do that going into schools? who write with other, you contribute with anthologies? And how do you fit it all in?

Emma Robinson: 6:11

I would say, boundaries and boxing off my time is vital for me. So I also teach I’m three days a week in school teaching anyone GCSE. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know how much longer I can sustain that, to be honest.

But yeah, so for the last, or since I was published four years ago, yeah, I’m continuing to teach three days a week, the children are kind of two in the twin size. Yeah, and then the writing. So I kind of feel like there’s three areas of my life that I need to juggle.

And up to this point, how I’ve managed it is by really ring fencing my time. So when I’m in school, I stay at school until my schoolwork is finished, I don’t bring work home, and I get everything done.

And when I’m at school, my students have the best they have every part of me, you know, I’m focused on them. And in getting that done. Once I come home, I’m mum, and that’s my time.

And then when I have writing time, so I have Tuesdays and Fridays, I’m at home without the children. And, you know, one of the weekend days, that’s my writing time, and I have to be really focused. And I have to write in that time.

So I don’t have the luxury of sitting down and thinking, Oh, well, you know, I’ll get a bit done, I have a, I use an app called pacemaker, which I love. And I would recommend to anybody listening to this that finds it hard to keep themselves going.

Because pacemaker is free app, pacemaker dot press, and you literally plug in the amount of words you need to do, how long you’ve got to do it.

And it will tell you how many you’ve got to do each day. And if you do more or less, it will, it will kind of kick itself around.

And I find that useful. So I’ve been very, very focused. And I don’t think I realize how important that was until lockdown. So during lockdown, I had my children home, I had to teach from home via via Google Classroom. And I had booked still to write.

And I found that a very, very, very difficult time because suddenly all these boundaries and all these ring fenced parts of my life, blended. And emotionally, mentally, intellectually, in every way. I found that really, really difficult.

So I’m only just I would say getting out of that now, because school is starting to get back to normal, the kids are back at school. And my time is now I can go back to that. So So yeah, I would say for anyone with it with a busy life, keeping your writing time as precious time.

So for example, on my days off, I will frequently have friends say, Oh, you’re home, let’s meet for lunch. Let’s do this, let’s, which is lovely, don’t get me wrong, it’s lovely. But I can’t, I can’t, you know if it’s something special I will.

And I’ve also learned that if a friend wants to meet up I’ll say, well, let’s meet for breakfast. Because I can do an hour first thing because because for me I need a run at it when I’m writing.

I can’t snatch half an hour here and there because it takes me half an hour to get back in up to speed of where I want to be. So it’s far better for me to meet for breakfast.

And then from 10am I’m at my desk until three o’clock when I click the kids. And I’ve got you know, I’ve got a run at it. Whereas if I met for lunch, it would destroy the whole day.

So so it’s kind of, I guess, working out how you work and ring fencing that time but I’m also extremely fortunate to have a husband who’s hugely supportive.

So when I’m kind of stressing about deadlines, obviously now I’m published I’ve got deadlines to me. It’s not just my own writing it’s I’ve got to get it back to my editor.

So you know if I’m if I’ve got my back against the wall on a deadline and I’m getting stressed, I will just go away for a weekend so I’ll find a cheap premiere in relatively close to home far enough.

A way that I can’t pop back, but not so far that I’m wasting time on a car. And I will literally lock myself away in a premier room with a bag of stuff from Tesco and not move from Friday night to Sunday afternoon.

Get it done. So yeah, so that’s my process. That’s my process.

Emma Dhesi: 10:16

I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us, I kind of took away from that you have to have strong boundaries

Emma Robinson: 10:20

Yeah, no. Yeah. So initially, my daughter was and be quite tough with yourself and honor those boundaries.

And ring fence is a word that I use quite a lot, making sure that they that you honor those and that you give the that writing time the importance that it needs. I wonder if I could just take you back to before you. Before you were published, or when you were first started writing?

Did you always have those two days available to you? Or did you at one point did you need to fit that writing in amongst a full time job or having the kids at home full time? still at home. So I’m trying to think actually, maybe my son was still at home as well.

I’m trying to think when I was No, I think they were both still at home. He was I’m not good with maths. He was born in 2000. And yeah, I think they were both still at home, or he was maybe just going to school. So no, that was a lot more difficult.

So then it was about writing into the night. So you know, I would get them to bed or some nights my husband would take over bedtime, my children are not good sleepers have never been good sleepers. So that was always a bit of a trial.

And I would often sit there and write into kind of one two in the morning. But each time one of them would probably wake up and I’d be putting them back to bed again. So yes, I think that was more of having to write into the night, really at that stage.

But in some ways that was easier because I didn’t have that my did work deadlines were self imposed.

So I would say it was less effective. It took me longer to do so I you know, undercover mother with revisions and sending out to agents and things.

Probably I say it took me my year 43. But it was another couple of years on top of that, before I got the publishing deal for it.

So yeah, I think really, there was a lot of nighttime writing, then I’m writing around them.

So if I just happened to get lucky during the day where they were both playing, I could snatch an hour with my laptop. But it Yes, it was a lot more ad hoc then.

Emma Dhesi: 12:13

So great example there of when it’s important to you will find it you’ll find a way to make it work for you.

And so for any of our listeners that is looking for those gaps in your day, or gaps in your week where you can make that your waiting time and order it and sit down and give it to yourself as a treat and a gift

Emma Robinson: 12:31

Absolutely and I watched no TV during that time apart from with the children.

Absolutely not. So it’s quite funny I now there’s so many TV series, which I’m catching up during lockdown, particularly that I was catching up on that people watched six years ago that I have no clue about for me, it’s all new TV, because I just didn’t you know it was TV or writing.

That was the choice really. And I couldn’t give up reading. So TV man. Oh,

Emma Dhesi: 12:57

I bet you’re glad that you made the choice to write it’s because it just rang my goodness.

And so you mentioned there the querying. Couple of years there.

What advice do you have for any new writers who are starting out, they’re looking now to find an agent or a publisher, they want to go that traditional routes?

Emma Robinson: 13:16

Okay, so I’d say there’s a couple of things to think about. One is in terms of the traditional route, if you want to go to the big publishers, the big name publishers, you’re going to need an agent, which I’m sure they know.

But there, there is a second route. So I’m with a digital first publisher, Butcher, who are part of Hachette Tisha obviously a big publisher, and put your digital imprint of Hachette.

And a lot of these digital first publishers will take direct submissions without an agent, which is what I did. I did submit to agents at the same time, but I also sent sent the whole manuscript to butcher as well.

So as some of the smaller imprints as well, so smaller publishers will take directly rather than through an agent. But But either way, I think, really, it’s, it’s in many ways, it’s a numbers game.

So first of all, you need to really be clear on who you’re submitting to just sending out as a blanket send out is pretty fruitless, because particularly if you’re going on to agents, websites, they agents and publishers are very specific about what they’re looking for.

So if you’ve written a sci fi romance, there is absolutely no point submitting to an agent that only represents horror or literary fiction. So you need to be really clear, and there’s lots of resources out there for that.

I used a website part of Jericho writers, which was called agent Hunter, I’m not sure if it’s still called that.

And that’s an online database of agents which is similar in I guess, to what probably most people use it to the writers and artists yearbook, which is very useful, and it’s very expensive, so just get it out but use it at the library Don’t buy a copy.

I shouldn’t say that. But you know, they are is quite expensive that that the agent that that’s useful, but I found agent Hunter was good because it was updated during the year. And the thing is in this industries, agents move around quite a lot.

And people in publishing move around quite a lot. So yeah, so do your research, find an agent that you think or a publisher that you think wants to publish the kind of books that you’re publishing.

Another route is follow agents on Twitter, because a lot of agents and I’ve seen two or three this week, which I’ve tagged unpublished trends in where agents are opening up because I, some agents will only have a few months in a year where they’re accepting submissions, and then they’ll close their books.

So if you’re on there, if you’re following them on Twitter, you’ll be the first to hear about that. So yeah, so keep an eye on what’s going on. And then I would say, don’t focus all your desire on one agent.

Because I think that’s the root of disappointment. If you you know, there, there are so many people out there, and there’s so much luck involved. In the whole thing, I’m probably being a bit random now.

But I know that when I had undercover mother published, my wonderful editor, still, my editor now had just got back from maternity leave. And my book was about a woman on maternity leave.

So you know, the stars aligned for me perfectly. And it’s sometimes that little bit of luck, that actually makes a difference between you know that there’s so many great books out there that don’t get published, because there’s so much luck. So don’t be despondent if you’re sending out and not getting response, because you only need one response.

So kind of keep going. So yeah, I guess in summary, it’s do your research on the agents, keep an eye on the agents on social media, particularly Twitter, I think is quite useful.

And then start sending out, I sent out a batch of six, I think, the first time and kind of every time you get a rejection, and expect the rejections because then they hopefully won’t hurt quite so much.

Or that they will, you know, when you get a rejection, then send another one out, you know, keep it going, keep going.

And listen to feedback. Because if you’re really, really fortunate, the first aid when the first agents that rejected me very, very generously, gave me three pages worth of feedback as to why or why undercover mother wasn’t ready for publication.

And she was spot on in every single respec and it was immensely useful. So although it was a rejection, she did me a huge, huge favor.

So if you get anything other than a standard response, take that as a real positive, because it means that they think you’ve got something, yeah, they’ve taken that time to actually read the whole thing.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Emma Dhesi: 17:43

Wonderful kind of feedback there and an insight there into the business of publishing.

Because I think as you know, when we’re new, we’re excited. And all we see just the published authors out there, and the best sellers, and we think that that’s what it’s all about, and wouldn’t it be marvelous, but actually, the harsh reality of publishing is that it is hard is tough.

As you mentioned, it’s a numbers game, there’s an element of luck. The industry is shrinking in many, many ways. So bearing all of that in mind, just to kind of manage, not necessarily expectation, but that level of taking it personally and feeling that it’s not good enough.

But I love to your advice there about, you know, going looking at the smaller and smaller imprints like butcher, that going that digital first route, which I would imagine not many people are aware of. And so that’s something really good to look forward because you are great.

They aren’t factoring in a lot of my favorite writers with them. And then they information as well to the advice about going to agent hunters through Jericho writers and the yearbook, of course, such great tips. So thank you for that, Emma, that’s really helpful for my listeners.

Thank you. Fantastic. So you mentioned your, your first book there, which as I mentioned in your bio is, is a much more humorous look at family life.

And then you’ve made the transitions into the kind of what we call women’s fiction, I guess, which are the more kind of heartfelt emotional stories.

So what made you make that switch from one to the other?

Emma Robinson: 19:18

I guess? Well, I really, I can credit my editor at Butcher. And that’s one thing if you get an editor that you work really well with.

So, you know, as I say, we’re currently working on our ninth book together. And she’s been amazing it not just managing each book, but kind of helping me shape my career quite a lot.

So you know, which is fantastic if you get to work with someone that kind of gets your writing and gets what you’re trying to do.

So yeah, as I say we the first three books were all more humorous. Sales of the first two are okay, the sales of the third one pretty poor.

So I’d signed a three book deal and I thought, right that’s me down that’s me. You know, I can remember to Two or three days of schlepping around the house like Sylvia Plath kind of dressed. In black. It’s all over, it’s over.

And this is part of publishing, I think, is a bit of a roller coaster remote writers, by definition, I guess a quite empathetic, which means we really feel every part of it, don’t we? So yeah, so I, you know, and then we had a long phone meeting to talk about it.

And she was so so lovely, and so complimentary about my writing. And she said to me, I just feel like you’ve got a best seller in you. And we need to think about, you know, what we need to do next.

And her books are fantastic at looking at reviews, looking at what sells, they’re very commercially focused.

And what she said to me was looking at my reviews, the part of my novels, even though they were humorous, the part of my novels that readers had responded to in reviews were the more emotional storylines, were the moments where maybe she had made them shed a tear.

And she said, I think that’s where we should go next, I think we should, you know, look for bigger issues, look for the emotional side of things and kind of move away, not, you know, not move away from the humor completely, because I hope that there are lighter moments in in my book, still, because no one wants to read something that’s depressing all the way through, you know, they are emotional, but I hope this did a light element to.

And she said, that’s the way to go. So that’s when I wrote my son and daughter, which was about a mother struggling with a daughter, who she thought might be autistic. And then I kind of went into, and that book did a lot better.

And we’ve moved on and on and on in that vein. And I think with each one, I’m getting a little bit braver in terms of the subject matter, you know, that I’m covering, which is really scary every time because when you’re writing about things that people have happened to them in their real life.

And there’s a lot of a responsibility with that. And, and it’s scary. And I live in fear of someone saying, No, you got that wrong.

But yeah, I’m loving it, I’m really enjoying kind of really digging deeper into myself and into the stories.

Interview with Emma Robinson

Emma Dhesi: 22:08

And did you find that in terms of your own writing style, and the way that you approach a manuscript?

Do you find that shift quite easy? Or was there a sort of transition period?

Emma Robinson: 22:19

I don’t know, I think relatively easy, because I think in all three of the previous books, there had always been a thread in it.

That was quite emotional. And I like emotion. You know, I like nothing better than a real movie that I can cry to.

So you know, so, again, there’s that whole thing about reading in the genre that you want to write, you know, I’ve always read books that make me cry.

So in terms of this writing, I don’t think it was a huge shift. In terms of trusting myself maybe in terms of making I fell out.

I think it makes your list for me, I think it may be a little bit more vulnerable, because obviously by then I had, I haven’t got big platform, I’m no Jodi pickle, but I had followers, I had readers, and I was scared that they would say, Hang on a minute, we buy your books to make us laugh.

What are you doing here? And secondly, I think it’s that, again, that whole thing of getting it wrong. And I think I grew up very much in a home when when things were tough, we’d laugh about it, you know, you can’t do that with my own children.

You know, let’s try and cheer ourselves up. Let’s laugh. And I think you can hide behind laughter. I’m getting a bit deep here.

But I think you can hide behind laughter quite a lot. And when you kind of peel that back, and you have the bear emotion, you kind of are making yourself quite vulnerable. So I think the very long answers your question is, I don’t think the writing was more difficult.

But I think the emotional connection and the vulnerability was more difficult.

And I think I still find that difficult. Every time that I write because I think right, this is the one where people are going to start pointing the finger and saying how dare you? But But yeah, no, it’s I think it’s harder.

But I guess if it didn’t make me feel like that the writing wouldn’t be good.

Emma Dhesi: 24:04

Yeah, a lot to be said of that, that that I think women for race people who write women’s fiction, those darker kind of more realistic stories, almost as writers we are having to kind of dig into a side of ourselves, that maybe isn’t the nicest part of ourselves that we can pull out these characters in these stories.

And I think vulnerable is absolutely the right word. I certainly always worried that people will think my character’s or me and have I done that. And do I say that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, kind of have that little bit of distance can be tricky.

But you’ve mentioned too as well that your subject matter.

And that’s getting you’re getting more and more brave for that, I think was the word that you use. Yeah.

So where do you get your story ideas from? And bearing in mind that as writers we come up with a million ideas a day, how do you determine

Okay, which is the one that is going to stick and actually Will you can develop into a full storyline? And do you have a process for that?

Emma Robinson: 25:05

Yeah, I think process is probably giving it a bigger day than it actually is. It feels a bit more random than that.

But I think what I’ve learned is, I think there’s two things. By nature, I have things I want to write about, rather than plots that come to me. So I think I want to write about emotional abuse, or I want to write about what it would be like, for x to happen to you.

And I kind of pitch these ideas to my editor. And she says, Yeah, it’s really great. But here’s the actual plot about like, we need a plot. So I think what I’ve learned is that I, I,

I love the what if I think God pick up particulars excellent at this, what would you do if, and I’m very fortunate, again, to be 47 and have lots of friends who have had lived many lives, and be able to steal bits and pieces from them.

I listened to people all the time. I’m very nosy I love to learn about people’s lives. And for me, I often have an idea, which isn’t enough for a story. And I’ll write that up, and I’ll store it on my computer and put it in the back of my head. And then sometimes another idea will come to me.

And then I think, right, if I put those two together, that’s a plot. So to save my child, the one that’s just out, my brains gone on my main character’s name.

That’s terrible. The mother? Gosh, it’s because it’s because I’ve been writing today the new one. So that one’s gone from my brain. So the mother in that happy? No. Libby’s the daughter? Oh, my gosh, it’s really embarrassing.

Emma Dhesi: 26:41

Gonna look it up. You carry on?

Emma Robinson: 26:42

Yeah. Okay. It’s really embarrassing. But yes, so the mother that obviously has everyone’s nightmare, her daughter is dangerously ill.

And that’s a nightmare. But there’s not a plot there. That’s something we can relate to. It’s an idea, but it’s not a plot. But then I had the idea of, and I was actually guided to this for this one by another writer, friend, we were talking about this.

You’ve got this idea that if What if you had to go to the person that you least wanted to go to for help.

And that had come from a conversation, a lunch with a friend, who had just escaped from quite an emotionally abusive relationship.

So that was an idea that had been at the back of my head for maybe two, three years?

And then I suddenly thought, right, if I put those two together, now we’ve got a dilemma. Now we’ve got a plot.

So I think, yeah, I think it’s kind of picking up bits and pieces all the time and just letting my brain chew on them and then to bang together.

And I have the plot. And that’s kind of my process not

Emma Dhesi: 27:44

it’s a good process there. And I think it’s certainly one that Stephen King always, I think talks about, isn’t it? It’s that what if you’re being hurt, then that’s how you take something ordinary and kind of make it extraordinary.

Yeah. And Anna? Anna, thank you.

Emma Robinson: 28:01

Because I’m writing about Julia at the moment. So all I can think of is Julia.

Emma Dhesi: 28:06

Julia for a moment, because we can’t come back to her.

But that’s yeah, so that idea of what if is really an as I think it’s kind of sparks the brain then to think in slightly different ways. Outside the Box, yeah.

Emma Robinson: 28:21

And also pushes, pushes you because another thing that my editor says to me frequently is right, you need to up the stakes, up the stakes, you know, because I’ll say, Oh, this could happen. She’ll say, Yeah, but she can easily get out of that you need to up the stakes.

Why can’t she? And sometimes I feel like I’m literally throwing all these horrible things at my characters.

But that’s, you know, there’s no point giving a character a dilemma where the reader can think, well, she just needs to do this.

You know, we’ve all watched those awful TV shows where all films and the characters running all over the place. You think that’s ridiculous.

Just go there until the person that and it’ll be fine. You don’t know there can’t be an easy out for the characters. Otherwise, there’s no dilemma.

Emma Dhesi: 29:02

That’s it? Yes, it and so that’s where that kind of why people say you’ve got to be so mean to your characters, so that your reader can feel that tension and that sticks through. So your most recent book to save my child, it was published last month, but congratulations.

Thank you. Um, so what can you tell us about that? You’ve sort of hinted at it, but what what more can you tell us?

Emma Robinson: 29:25

Yeah, so basically, it is from one point of view. So the like, the previous couple of books had actually been a split narrative between two characters, which I’ve done a few times, and I’m doing again at the moment. So it was first one sort of stayed with one character.

And I and I needed to do that because I needed to read to really feel the dilemma that she was going through.

So Anna was a single mother to live as a six year old girl and chapter one dB collapses. They go to hospital, and Libby has a kidney disease and Anna is not a donor, she cannot be a donor, she’s not match for kidney transplant that her daughter needs.

Nor is anybody else. So, because of her love for her daughter, she would do anything for for a daughter, like every mother would, she has to then go to her ex partner who she’s recently, only months previously managed to get away from, who was as we begin to find out, not a very pleasant man and, and that kind of unfolds as the novel goes on.

So I think what I really wanted to explore is this whole thing that a mother will do anything for her daughter with her child, in terms of sacrificing herself, and, and just To what lengths a mother will go to make sure that her daughter is safe and well.

And obviously, there are other twists and turns along the way. There’s other characters that come in. Hopefully, there’s a couple of other characters who are nice characters to kind of give a bit of balance. So it’s not, it’s not tense all the way through.

But I think what I enjoyed most in this book is the gradual unfolding of Ryan’s character, the Father’s character, because having spoken to quite a few people about that kind of partner, that sort of narcissistic, emotionally abusive partner, it opened my eyes really, to how common it is.

And possibly I’m being very naive here. But I hadn’t realized how many women have been in a relationship with someone like that.

And I’ve had quite a lot of feedback from people, which has been quite humbling, to be honest. Because again, as I said, previously, as soon as you start to realize how many people have experienced this, that responsibility to convey it, in a, in the right way, becomes even more important.

So I’ve never had an all out baddie before, I think so I really did enjoy that aspect of it. But also it to keep that tension going the whole way through for for Anna. And that was quite a challenge as well. But yeah, I really, really enjoyed writing.

And I’ve been really, really blown away by the reviews, which has been fantastic.

Emma Dhesi: 32:09

Right, right. Quite right. And so in terms of research for a new subject, like the kidney disease, how did you go about that was, again, this was some such an experience that you knew through somebody else, were you able to talk to them was online? Did you speak to any medical staff? What did you do?

Emma Robinson: 32:28

Again, what so always, for me, the first stage stage is to go to YouTube, because I think there’s a million, it’s amazing what people will put on YouTube. That’s very personal. And it’s a really good first stage, because when I, I did speak to people that have had kidney transplants, I’ll speak about that in a second.

But I think you can’t keep going back to people and asking them questions, you can a couple of times, but I can’t be, you know, saying someone can have an hour of your time because I have another hour of your time.

So I like to think that by the time I’ve speaking to somebody that’s experienced it, I know which questions I need to ask. So I’m not using too much of their time. So I start off with YouTube and get some general information, work out what might work with my plot, what I can use.

So for example, I can’t explain too much detail, a little giveaway stuff in the in the book, but there are a couple of things that happen. And in the latest stage of testing for whether or not Ryan is a donor, which I got completely from a YouTube video on someone’s experience, and I thought that would be a great plot twist.

So sometimes the research feeds the plot, which is also interesting. Yeah, so when I’ve got that I then normally, I’ve I usually no pizza, a lot of the things I’ve written about I do know people that have been through similar things.

But weirdly, I don’t know anybody that’s had a kidney transplant. So I literally put on my Facebook, any of my friends knows anyone that’s had a kidney transplant that would happily spend an hour answering some questions on the telephone.

And I was very fortunate that two of my friends knew people who were willing to do that.

So I had long telephone conversations with two people that had had slightly different experiences. One of whom was given was donated a kidney by her father and the other one by a stranger.

So it was really interesting to hear the two different stories and work out how what you know what I want you to do.

And that is immensely helpful, because I close my questions, and they answer them. And it is amazing how honest and how open people are willing to be and generous with their information.

And then also, as they’re talking, sometimes they will say things which again, like I say, will feed into the plot and I think I have to use that in the book because it’s such a great, a great thing.

And you know, and 95% of what you’re told will not make it into the book and I think you need to be careful to not you know, this is not a book about how to do kidney transplant, you know, no one’s gonna read this and they know everything about kidney transplants.

All I’m looking for those three or four really specific details. that if someone reads it that has had a good chance that they’ll say, Yes, she’s done our research, yes, she knows what she’s talking about so…

Emma Dhesi: 35:09

A good a good thing to mention there is that that 95% doesn’t make it in.

Because sometimes I think, if we’ve done a lot of research, we really want to demonstrate that we’ve done that. And then we can end up just kind of info dumping, look, what I’ve done

Emma Robinson: 35:24

Exactly that my editor has got a really good way of talking about she says about, you know, getting that plot first, as like the skeleton of the story, and then you can lay on the things that you want to talk about.

But the plot drives what you put in it, not the other way around.

So you’re not kind of writing about a kidney research you’re writing, I’m writing about a mother who has to make a big decision, you know, and that’s what I’m writing about. And the everything else is incidental.

Emma Dhesi: 35:53

So it sounds like your editor is very involved in the process, she doesn’t just come in at the end and look at your first draft or even your second draft. you’re discussing this with her as you go along.

Emma Robinson: 36:03

Yeah, I would say that’s happened more with later books. So you know, the first three, I kind of delivered as it was, obviously, the first one I did, because that’s what I submitted. But the next two, even I, I kind of submitted a first draft and then we talked about it.

And then I think there’s a couple of books where the structure legit was quite big. And you don’t have to check it out once I’d written it from three perspectives. And she said, Actually, I think you want it from one perspective that was happening ever after.

So it was a huge structural edit. So very quickly, we kind of realized that actually, it would be better to have a, you know, I now submit quite a detailed synopsis. Before now almost a chapter by chapter synopsis, I am a planner, not not a pantser.

And she will have input there. So that really helps a great deal. And then for this particular book that I’m writing at the moment, I’ve written it, I’ve written a first draft, but I know. I know it’s not right, you know, it’s fine.

But I know it’s missing something. So I sent it to her and said, I need your magic wand on this one. I know, I know, I’m missing something. I don’t know what it is. And we had a lovely lunch last week, we spoke for about two and a half hours about lots of other things.

But We then talked about the book. And she’s very talented at beyond tech, that sort of helicopter view.

I think when you’re a writer, you’re so close to the plot that it’s sometimes difficult to see what it what it’s missing. And, and that’s the other advice I’d give people about.

I know it’s hard when it’s your book, baby, but not being too precious about it, because you are too close to it to realize. And I think there’s that famous quote, isn’t it? If someone tells you there’s something wrong with your book, they’re probably right.

If they tell you how to fix it, they’re probably wrong. Which you know, which I think is great. But I think with with my editor, she’s she’s great at saying, you know, this is what, what it is.

And I left that meeting, after feeling quite Oh goodness, I’ve lost my way with this. I left that meeting, excited to get back to it.

And you know, and start. And I knew she’d kind of just hit that nail on the head of what I was really trying to do with the book. So yes, she’s very involved, very involved

Emma Dhesi: 38:11

Shows how important that having a relationship is absolutely so openly and constructively.

Emma Robinson: 38:19

And I would say sorry to it. But just because obviously your listeners are possibly not at the stage of having an editor for the first book, so I had beat it. I had friends, writer friends who were BETA readers, so I did the Jericho writers self edit calls, which is absolutely fantastic.

That’d be ALPA teaches that course and it’s not cheap, but it was the best thing I’ve ever done for my writing.

And from that there were a group of five of us who were trying to get published. And we used to, you know, we lived all around the country, we would meet up once a year for a weekend.

And we would send each other things and be to read for one another. And if you can get that it’s it’s so vital, is, you know, there’s things like whole characters where I thought, you know, this character is well rounded and great.

And they’d say, Well, that character is not very likable.

And I think what you mean she’s not likable, she’s lovely. But clearly it hadn’t come across on the page, because you’re too close.

You know, those characters like your best friends. So, yeah, it’s really vital to get somebody else’s eyes on it, I would say.

Emma Dhesi: 39:21

So how long for you? No, no, because your ninth book? My goodness, yeah. How long does it take you from initial idea to? Let’s say, final draft?

Emma Robinson: 39:34

About five or six months? Okay. Yeah. So two books a year, two books a year. I’m publishing them when I’m not pushing because you’re publishing of mine.

Yeah, two books a year. So yeah. First Draft. I would say that probably a bit. It really fair is actually I would say, Yeah, first off about four months, and then two months of edits. Yeah.

Emma Dhesi: 39:53

Okay. Yeah. That’s a nice ballpark for Yeah. And for me, too. And so you’ve mentioned Julia, I think I remember rightly.

So tell us about that, if you can, what you’re working on at the moment.

Emma Robinson: 40:05

Yeah, it’s still in quite a quite an early stage. But this is another sort of jewel narrative.

So two mothers again. So these are two mothers that have been friends in the past.

They met when the children were young, and probably sort of drifted apart, they’re both very, quite different. And then a big thing happens, which I can’t talk about, but it’s a big thing happens.

And they’re kind of thrown back together. And it’s, again, it’s a kind of what it for one of the mothers, it’s kind of, you know, how far what would you go?

How far would you go for your daughter. And for the other one, it’s, her journey is a bit more internal, and it’s a bit more realizing, and taking stock of life a little bit, and I’m being really vague there. But it really is in embryonic phase.

And I think, should anyone from should my editor catch this, I’ll be in big trouble.

So yeah, I’m being very vague, but it’s to mothers get all my books are about mothers. And all my books are about female friendship.

Because female friendship, it’s and it’s really important to me, and has, you know, been big in my own life. So it’s something I really enjoy writing about.

Emma Dhesi: 41:13

Oh, lovely. Well, I’m excited for that one. That’ll be next year now, I guess.

Emma Robinson: 41:17

Yes. I think March or April, April, I think next year. Lovely.

Emma Dhesi: 41:23

Lovely. Oh, well, just to round off, I’m just working listeners find out a little bit more about you and your books online.

Emma Robinson: 41:29

Right. So I’ve got a blog called motherhood for slackers. So if they want anything that’s a bit more fun.

You can visit me and motherhoodforslackers.com. But I’ve also got a relatively recent website called emmarobinsonwrites.com.

So which does need to be updated? But yes, you’ll be able to find me on Facebook on Twitter.

So on Twitter I’m at at Emma Robinson UK.

Emma Dhesi: 41:53

Okay, that is great. Well, I’ll link to those in the show notes.

Emma, it’s been a joy speaking with you shared so generously about your own experience and your own thoughts and your own processes in your writing life.

I really appreciate the time you’ve taken today.

Emma Robinson: 42:08

You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me.

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Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.