Interview with Grace Sammon, author of The Eves
Interview with Grace Sammon
Grace Sammon is an entrepreneur, educator, speaker and author. She has started and managed to for profit and to not for profit companies.
And she has travelled to 35 states in America and to eight countries overseas. recognized in who’s who in education and who’s who in literature.
Grace is utilising skills built up over the decades as she reinvents herself with her award winning fourth book and debut novel The Eves as well as weather returned to one of our early loves radio.
The Eves is an intergenerational story about lives lived well and lives in transition. It is a novel that challenges us to ask who we want to be in the world regardless of our age.
Grace brings that quest for a good story, and a drive to keep contributing to her new radio show the storytellers each episode captures the stories of authors and others who leave their mark on the world through the art of story.
Grace is a member of the Women’s Fiction Writers Association is director of membership for one of the fastest growing Facebook groups because roadtrip and a contributing moderator of the rate review.
She is currently working on several anthologies and sketching out her new novel. So let’s have a chat with grace and find out more about the Eves her debut novel, the storytellers her radio show and what she is working on next.
Well, Grace, thank you so so much for joining me here today. I’m thrilled to be speaking to you.
Grace Sammon:
Emma I am thrilled to be with you. I love popping over across the pond to Scotland today.
Emma Dhesi:
And I always kind of start my interviews by asking my guests What was your journey to fiction?
Grace Sammon:
Well, it was actually a long journey, even though I always wrote and always enjoyed writing. My first three books are all in the area of education. So switching to being a fiction writer was quite honestly a surprise.
I had been travelling 200 days a year on my educational consulting job, and that was getting exhausting. And my mom had died. My father was ill my children were grown. And I thought, Who am I in this story of life anymore.
And as I began to wrestle with that, I began to fantasise about what a really perplexed character and a complex character who was facing those same issues might feel like look like and wrestle with which issues.
So I created the Eves. And all of a sudden I was a novelist.
Emma Dhesi:
That’s nice. I love that they just this inspiration came and, and then it sort of came from your own chapter of life and the thoughts that you’re having about, okay, where I’m at a crossroads here.
You know, how does this impact me and where am I going to go from here? That’s quite often how story ideas come to me as well.
Grace Sammon:
Well, I was going to say as an author, you know, we tend to write the book we want to read And there was just no other book out there.
And that is a whole other thing. You have such a wonderful world into the whole world of publishing and writing, you know that that whole journey is made more difficult to get published, especially if you don’t have another book that you can say to a potential agent.
My book is like that book. So in creating and writing the book that I wanted to read, it was then also a publishing challenge, if you will, but yes, very much from my own experience.
And I think readers feel that, you know, they feel when an author is really connected to their story.
Emma Dhesi:
Mm hmm. Well, you’ve mentioned the eaves as your debut novel.
And it is a beautiful story. As I said, before we started recording, I recently read it.
And it’s all about Jessica, who is telling the stories of the women that she comes into contact with on a sustainable farm. But I wonder if you could give us a little more detail into that and what the story’s about.
Grace Sammon:
Thank you. So Jessica, is basically a hot mess. She’s in her late 50s.
She’s lost her connection to her children. She’s basically given up on her career, her looks, she hasn’t given up on her vodka, and she has not given up on her lies that help her get through every day.
And she has a very, very bossy friend named Sonia. And I hope everybody listening has a very, very bossy friend. Because Sonia says to her, you will stop hiding, you are hiding from the world, you are not making your mark on the world.
And I have this group of women that I want you to meet, I want you to catalogue their stories.
And Jessica wants none of it, but realises she is lost enough. And she doesn’t want to disappoint Sonia.
So she starts writing the oral histories of these women and the youngest character is 15 and the oldest one is 94.
And she starts writing the characters of these older women. And as she does everybody’s story changes.
Emma Dhesi:
Yeah, it’s a particularly Jessica’s, it felt like as well.
And it’s one of the things I really enjoyed about your writing was how, after each kind of, after certain kind of deep conversation she has with other people about their lives, she would have a realization about her own life and you did it very subtly.
About You know, for example, you mentioned the vodka.
No, remember, just as an example, after a conversation she’d had with somebody, she decided not to finish that mug of vodka that was beside her import it down the sink and I thought it just little things like that gave us a clue into how her slowly but surely she was evolving and changing and coming out of this key that she’d been hiding in by on her own.
I’m intrigued to about the love interest in her story, whose name for the moment has just popped out of my head.
Grace Sammon:
Which character?
Emma Dhesi:
A man in her life? Oh, Regulus Oh Yes. What was the inspiration behind Roy and and why was it important to give her you know, that kind of companionship.
Grace Sammon:
Writing is an interesting character. One of the things that readers and reviewers say about the book in general, is that if you love a character driven novel or if you love a place driven novel, you will love the Eves because the characters are so well developed and and I love that as an author. Truth be told, however, Roy Gillis is word for word, my husband.
He there is no there is no wonderful creativity about how I cast Roy. And it was important for me to have Jessica, meet Roy fall in love with Roy. Because her transformation as you alluded to, is very complete. You know, she’s such a hot mess.
As I mentioned, she’s broken in so many ways. And I wanted her to heal in as many ways as possible. And that, for me was very realistic. I’m married to my Roy Gillis only nine years. So it’s relatively new for me.
And I wanted to also address the idea of love at a later age and intimacy at a later age.
Our bodies that was something that was very important for me to write about, you know, my body at 68 Unfortunately, or fortunately, is not the same body I had when I I was younger, a young mom, even 10 years ago, it’s amazing how there seems to be this little meter, after which you pass.
It’s like the point of no return, you realize you’re never going to have that flat stomach again. And coming to terms with that, and also been able to talk about that, candidly, was important to me. So there is a love scene between Jessica and Roy.
And I think it probably should have happened about five chapters before it did. But I couldn’t figure out how to write about it. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, I don’t. I don’t want any touching.
Emma Dhesi:
It’s so tricky. It is a tricky sort of scene to navigate doing a love scene and how, how subtle you want to be and how not, and what will readers like and what will they not? It’s, it is a fine balance, I think. But I think you did it very well.
I also wondered, I was sort of thinking about the now that I know that Roy is your husband, I need to think about what I say. But one of the things I wondered about the two of them is because he’s very steady, stable.
And she’s not. And I wondered if you know, he had she adds a bit of excitement to his life that he can, he doesn’t have, you know, he’s not that type of character. So she gives him that kind of mood, a bit of a kick, a bit of excitement.
Grace Sammon:
It’s true in reality, and in the book, in my reality, and in the book.
Emma Dhesi:
It Well, I wonder about this reality then. And so Jessica is, she’s far from perfect, as we’ve alluded to, and could come across, as you know, some people might not like her. And, and I wonder how you did you?
Were you worried about that, that people might not like her drinking that people might not like that sort of slightly more prickly or slightly more outspoken side of a character?
Is that something you worried about when you wrote about her?
Grace Sammon:
I’m so glad you asked that question. Because in your own writing, your own characters aren’t always you know, the person you want to embrace right away. And I think that that’s a risky thing sometimes to do for an author.
But I also think it’s a very real thing. In truth, I don’t think I worried about it at any point, because even though Jessica is probably not is not my favorite character, she is very human, Lee flawed.
And I thought readers would be able to see, she’s flawed.
She’s not a bad person by any means. But I use a beta group of readers always to test the waters to help me with where plot should go, just to give me a feedback on the overall process, if you will, I also use beta readers in a very selfish way, in that if a beta reader, if I’m not done my piece, a beta reader will say, give me the next chapter.
And that’s very motivating. To me. It’s very, it’s egotistical. And it’s like, oh, they want the next chapter. So that is a piece that I considered critical to any writer to have a beta group. But in my beta group, I had at least three people who said, she is so unlikable, you will never get published.
One person said, She’s a liar. I won’t even finish this book, she is a liar. Oh. And so that gave me pause to really rethink her, I don’t think I changed her eye may have changed some of the language around her.
There’s a wonderful expression that the wonderful author Lainey Cameron uses, I think it’s called pet the cat, you know, so if you have a bad character who’s doing bad things, someplace along the line, he has to pick up a cat and pet the cat and feed the cat and then all of a sudden he becomes likeable.
So I love that lane. You taught me that piece. So I don’t think I did change her considerably.
But putting her out there in the world as flawed. Once I knew that people would think she was very flawed was a cause for concern.
Emma Dhesi:
Mm hmm. Certainly, I the the women that I write about are often start out very imperfect. And I have to admit, it is something that I do worry about whether people will like her and want to carry on, but for some reason, she still, you know, I keep writing she comes out the way she comes out.
And that’s, that’s the way it goes.
Interview with Grace Sammon
Grace Sammon:
Well as in, you know, to and people who are not writers will not necessarily resonate with this, but the characters take on a life of their own. And just like I couldn’t ask you to behave differently.
After we finished today. You know, you are a real entity and our characters are real entities. And when they act out of character readers also pick that up. They’ll say, oh, you know, Jessica would have never done that.
Roy would have never done that. You know, you mentioned Rye is very, very steady.
I can’t imagine a point where Roy would have yelled at Jessica for anything, because the readers would have said Ryan would have never done that.
Emma Dhesi:
Yeah. Now, you mentioned just before, we’re about talking about the road to publication.
And I wonder if would you be happy to share a little bit about that journey with us and how you went from having your finished manuscript to finding finding your publisher.
Grace Sammon:
That’s a wonderful journey. And I love to be asked that question. So my very, very first book in education was self published, made me quite honestly, a good bit of money. But I really struggled with that self publishing concept, particularly in the area of education.
Because I wanted to be vetted, I wanted to have that juried process, if you will. So my second book was published by Corwin press, as was my third book.
And those are incredibly, I thought would be very difficult road to publication, because as I said, they have superintendents and Dean’s of universities, and so many people who vet it and check the data and do a myriad of things to make sure that the volume is valid, if you will.
I sent out 16 letters to various publishing houses for my first book in education. And I think I had 14 responses or it was a ridiculous response rate, and very gratifying as well. In the world of being a novelist, it’s a very, very different route.
First of all, you don’t as many of your listeners will know, your, don’t ever send it directly to a publishing house, you send it to an agent, you have a 1% chance of getting an agent, you don’t even have a very good chance of hearing back from an agent whether they want it or not.
So there are some other routes, you can go without an agent.
And you can just Google those, you know, publishing houses that submit without an agent, and I could have gone that way. My brother Rick salmon has written 46 books, mostly in the area of photography.
The first I think 39 of them were traditionally published, which is now the word I use his 40th, one was independently published. And as I was searching around for agents, he said, This is ridiculous, you’re wasting too much time become an independent published person.
And I didn’t understand the subtle switch that has happened, in my mind anyway, between traditional publishing and indie publishing, I now even separate out self publishing as differently.
Because the indie world, even though we are technically self published, if you will, we tend to have book creators, as you know, I listened to a fabulous podcast on your show, about how do we do this and get such a professional product together.
And that was a very brilliant show on your part, by the way. And I think that I work very closely with a company called Writing knights, and a man named Chad Robertson, who is a brilliant editor and a absolutely fabulous book developer.
So I started working with him and he did all of the things that authors need to do if they’re going to go that self publishing route, which I now call indie route, you know, nobody says to Robert Redford’s Independent Film Festival, Oh, those are just indie films.
Those are real valid films. So making that mental switch was important. But then there was also a trick, because and this was the trick.
The traditional self published, or indie author gets their ISBN number, and it goes up on their Kindle version in their Amazon, and they’re usually Barnes and Noble. And there may be different vehicles, to the listeners that are listening to your show as well.
But those then cannot be carried in bookstores because bookstores can’t afford to get them at those rates, and they’re not returnable, and etc. So I worked closely with Chad Robertson, and we re issued the eaves under upstream press. And I had a different ISBN.
And now it can be in bookstores, bookstores may or may not carry it, but they can carry it they can carry it for a profit. People can go to independent bookstores, which I think are so important in our culture and say could you order me a copy of the eaves under this ISBN.
So the learning curve and the journey to that type of publishing was also immense.
Emma Dhesi:
It shows just how vast the publishing world World is even for us, you know, humble indies, but also how it’s evolving, you know, and listen a lot to Joanna pen and Jay Thorne who were in the indie space back and when it first started and listening to what the experiences they had 10 years ago, compared to how it is now, and that even on Amazon, you can publish a hardback, for example. It’s just evolving and changing all the time.
And it’s one of the exciting things about it. And, and even that move kind of, towards the more hybrid model, where you get the boost the best of both worlds, an author can retain a lot of their independence, but they still get the benefits say, of having a publishing house, advise them, guide them, help them with the technical side.
So it’s just wonderful how it’s evolving. Very exciting.
Grace Sammon:
Very exciting, and also very quickly evolving. I would tell you, almost nobody asks me who has who’s published my book. It never happens. And I do. I think I’ve done 56 interviews, perhaps on the book.
I’ve done various guest appearances, if you will, at retirement communities and libraries. And nobody ever says, Well, you know, are you published by Random House, they just don’t care anymore. What they want is accessibility to good stories.
Emma Dhesi:
Good stories, so keen. Now talking of stories, you have your radio show called the storytellers. So I would love for you to tell tell us about it.
Grace Sammon:
This is a real gift to me to have this radio show, as you know, because you were kind enough to read the eaves. It’s a story about never been done, regardless of your age. So the old lady’s transform, and many things happen to them, Jessica transforms, and many things happen to them.
And I think if I’m really honest with myself, deep down, I thought that in writing the book, I was done, I had finished the book that I got it out in the world. And I thought I was done.
And the surprise to me at 68 is that I’m not done. And that has mentioned or emerged in so many different ways. Certainly the way my social media has taken off the opportunity to speak with you in Scotland today.
But also with the radio show, I was had the great gift of being interviewed by a woman named Dr. Gail Carson. And she wanted to talk to me on her show, spunky old broad.
And the reason for that was because she loved the idea that I was writing about older women and she was 83 at the time. So she interviewed me on her show, we talked partly about entrepreneurism, and publishing, and we talked a lot about the story.
And she called me about two weeks later, and she said, I loved our episode, I want to give you your own radio show, whatever you want to talk about, I want you to have your own radio show.
And I said, Oh, I can’t do that I’m done.
And she just laughed at me and said, No, you’re not done. Remember, you just wrote that book.
So she and I spoke and she offered me a radio show on her station. And I did it. I think I’m into Episode 13.
Now, and I think 13 launched yesterday.
And it was just such a gift of her seeing something in me that I did not see in myself. And that’s also a theme in the book. And I think for so many of us and for so many of us as women, we don’t see ourselves as others see us.
So having Gail, give me the show, if you will was a huge gift. She was supposed to be guest number six on the show. And she literally passed away the day before we were taped.
Emma Dhesi:
Oh, I’m so sorry to hear that.
Grace Sammon:
It was really sad and shocking. And I’m so blessed that I got to meet her for minerals.
For a minute of my life. She was like four foot three and had more energy at 83 than I will ever have.
Emma Dhesi:
So sounds like you’re enjoying doing storytellers.
Grace Sammon:
I am in very surprising ways. I enjoyed being on both sides of the microphone, which is a surprise to me. I love putting together the puzzle of what a good interview looks like. I love doing the research.
I like finding the quirky things out about my guests. And I like the development of a different kind of conversation too. And you know, you’re on both sides of the microphone as well. So it’s just a joy. I’m very, very surprised.
I love that people resonate with it. Mm hmm. So basically, we focus on authors and others who leave their mark on the world through the art of story.
I’ve done mostly authors, but I interviewed this amazing newscaster the other day, who was with President George Bush, when he learned of the terrorist attacks.
She was As a follow, or she followed as a very young reporter, Martin Luther King and his wife, and went to the house as they were getting the news, because they had become friends that he had been murdered.
So it’s not it’s all of our stories, because I think we all have a story to tell.
Emma Dhesi:
Oh, gosh, fascinating. I’m just going to change tack a little bit. And I wanted to chat to you a little bit about the women’s women’s fiction writers Association.
You’re a member and I’ve recently become a member because I did want to connect with, with women who are writing the same kinds of stories as me about women’s lives.
And I wonder, do you feel that it is important to build that kind of community writing, author, community, and maybe to have that kind of network around you?
Grace Sammon:
I think it’s essential. I’m a relatively new member to WF WA, myself, the women’s fiction writers Association. It is a remarkable organization that I know I need to get more involved in.
I haven’t found the bandwidth in my time between some of the author things and getting the storytellers up and running. But they have a wonderful weekly newsletter, where they talk about volunteer activities, they talk, they celebrate certain authors.
So it’s a platform to get your feet wet in if you’d like. They do a monthly podcast, they post questions. So if you go to their Facebook page, you’ll frequently see an author posts something that says, My characters a little bit unlikable. Is that a risk?
What do you think about that, and you can kind of test the waters that way, because it’s such a supportive community.
So I’m so glad that you joined WF WA. And I think that network of authors has been such a support to me in this work in the last 17 months, 16 months, because we become friends.
And that’s something I especially at my age, I really kind of poo pooed the host social networking that you create real friends, I was like, no real friends are real people in real life that you can sit down and have dinner with.
And the idea that I can call up now 30, 40 authors if I needed to, and say, I’m really struggling with this, or I’m doing a Facebook Live, would you hop on with me is amazing. And we’re very honest and supportive group to each other.
And there are just a couple of people who really stand out. I already mentioned lady Cameron.
She’s somebody who’s won like 10 awards. And on her book, the exit strategy with her book, she just won. I can’t remember what her 10th award was.
Emma Dhesi:
Or 11th award. It wasn’t a crazy number.
Grace Sammon:
It could have been a crazy number. It’s hard to keep up.
But she immediately posted and said and congratulations to everybody else who was a runner up a finalist, whatever. She’s just amazing that way.
Julie Cantrell is similar. She was doing a workshop this week. I don’t know if you saw her social media posts.
But she was doing this workshop and Sharon to cat who’s another wonderful author was running to it and literally face planted on her way, and very horribly messed up her face.
And Julie Cantrell hopped on her social media showed a picture of Sharon to cat and said, We need to support this woman look at here, she was coming to my workshop lifting me up.
So lets everybody go over to her page and like her and follow her and send her a note of congratulations.
And that those are the two standouts in my mind. But the opportunity to lift people up in share and support is just amazing.
Emma Dhesi:
It is. And I hear so much more than I used to about the benefits of community that more people are looking for community and not just, you know, not just a big giant Facebook group where there’s 1000s and 1000s.
But actually a specific community where there’s joint interest and that support and lifting people up, as you mentioned.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that with us. So I’m conscious of time. But before we go, I’d really love to know, what are you working on at the moment?
Are you working on novel number two?
Grace Sammon:
I would love to tell you that’s a true story. I was so happy to talk to a fellow author, another great reason to have fellow authors.
We’re both working on our second novel. And I just asked her the other day said how many pages have you actually written she said 14 And I said, Oh, I’m so happy.
I think I’ve got three. So I have three novels at the back of the eaves.
I talked about writing one. I have three novels in my head. But I’m doing a lot more short story. We’re not article ready and I can’t even call them short story.
So I’m doing a lot of short, independent article writing at the moment.
I hope I have another book in me because truly, I’m never as happy as when I’m sitting there, and something forms in my head.
And sometimes it trickles down into my fingers and onto a keyboard and then onto a screen that that is magic to me. I don’t know how it happens.
I don’t know how we as humans do that. So I have three maybe in my head, and I hope they turn into real books.
Emma Dhesi:
Oh, me too. Yeah, I’ll be looking out for those. Yes. If any of our listeners would like to find out more about you, or more by the eaves? Where can they do that?
Grace Sammon:
Probably the easiest way to find me is on gracesammon.net and my name is spelled not like the fish.
It’s s a m m o n. So gracesammon.net and there you can find all the storyteller episodes are loaded, you’ll find biographies.
There’s lots of extras, there’s music that inspired the Eves.
And there’s some wonderful pieces of music up there.
There’s recipes, there’s questions, there’s book club guide, so lots of things available on gracesammon.net, they can always email me and they can email me at Grace at gracesammon.net or, you know, the ever present Facebook.
I’m at Grace Sammon, just my name. I also have an author page, but most authors aren’t on their author page as much as they are on their personal page.
So they can direct message me on Grace Sammon, and over on Instagram, I’m at Grace Sammon writes, as in Grace Sammon writes books.
Emma Dhesi:
Oh, perfect. I will make sure that I link to each of those in the show notes.
That’s wonderful. Well, Grace, it’s been a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you very much for joining me,
Grace Sammon:
Emma. Pleasure anytime, a real honor.
Emma Dhesi:
Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational.
Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, turning readers into writers.
It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel.
If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called Three Secret hacks to write with consistency.
So go to emmadhesi.com/turning readers into writers. Hit join. I can’t wait to see you in there.
All right. Thank you. Bye bye.
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Emma Dhesi
Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.
By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.
Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.
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