Interview with Susan DeFreitas

Emma Dhesi  00:00

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Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Susan DeFreitas is the author of the novel hot season, which won a gold IPP why award and is the editor of dispatches from an RS tales in tribute to Ursula Gwynn forthcoming from forest Avenue press, an independent editor and book coach.

She specializes in helping writers from historically marginalized backgrounds and those writing socially engaged fiction breakthrough into publishing.

So let’s delve into this fascinating conversation with Susan and find out more how she uses fairy tales to rate her socially engaged fiction.

Susan, thank you so much for being here with me today. I’m delighted to chat to you.

Susan DeFreitas  02:31

Oh, thank you for inviting me.

Emma Dhesi  02:33

Now. I always start my conversations with asking my guests, you know, how did you get started in writing? What’s kind of brought you to this point?

Susan DeFreitas  02:41

Yeah, you know, I started writing fiction pretty much as soon as I could read it. You know, I’m one of one of those people.

So I started when I was eight years old, I wrote, you know, illustrated, ridiculous, you know, mystery stories about cats that lived aboard ships. My dad was a chief engineer on the sailing ship. There were in junior high. I, when I read fantasy and science fiction, I wrote my first novel, you know, I believe it was, you know, around 100 pages.

But it was a big accomplishment for an 11 year old. I won some little small town awards. And then I want to, I had the wonderful opportunity to attend the Interlochen Arts Academy in northern Michigan, which is a Boarding School for the Arts and that is an experience that absolutely set my course.

You know, I discovered not only amazing, you know, writers of fiction there, but the great poets, you know, and it was really one of the most amazing years of my life, it’s set my taste for really top shelf fiction and maybe, you know, I just decided that’s it. You know, I want to do that more than anything else.

And so, you know, I majored in creative writing fiction and undergrad. And, you know, I was always writing a novel, always working on a book all through my 20s. You know, regardless of what my day job or my gigs were, you know, um, but it wasn’t until I was in my early 30s, that I went back to school and got my MFA, and really centered writing in my life that way and that’s also the point where I became in an editor first and then later a book coach.

So you could say that it has always been with me and but maybe it took a while to become the main thing I was doing with my life.

Emma Dhesi  04:53

I’m always interested in the MFA programs and people who have taken them. What do you feel was your passion main takeaway from doing that, that you that kind of either elevated or changed or enhanced your writing?

Susan DeFreitas  05:09

You know, I came in with a very strong sense of the kinds of stories I wanted to tell. And I soon discovered that those stories were considered rather unconventional in their subject matter being somewhat political, I’m the I write about the environment, I’m an environmental writer, and in centering characters, many people had not seen in fiction before, among them activists.

So there was definitely some some, I would say, some tension there, you know, because I wanted this thing for so long and I’ve been working on it for so long, but to discover that maybe what I was, I was so passionate about what’s considered perhaps marginal, or, or outside the mainstream.

But so, you know, that’s just being honest, that’s just being very honest, in terms of many different people have many different experiences and MFAS. But that was definitely part of what I had to grapple with their, but a huge takeaway that I got was, was how to distill once pros, you know, I call it professional strengths, pros, the author, Matt Bell has this wonderful term for weasel words.

You know, they are, they are words and phrases that are just not holding the weight, you know, they, they are just taking up space, they’re taking up your word count. And I discovered this when one of my mentors there, David long, you take a paragraph that I had written, and I swear to you cut a third of the words out of it without changing a bit of the sense.

And in fact, it read the way that I thought it read when I had sent it to him and you know, maybe this is part of what really sent me on my course of first working as an editor, because I saw what magic that was, you know, especially when I started to read for former literary magazines, I read for tin house magazine, RIP.

And I found what a difference it made. You know, when I opened up a submission, I could tell right away, I call it professional strength pros. You know, when when the the sense has been cooked down, you know, I love to cook. So I think of it as it’s been, it’s a reduction, you know, it’s it doesn’t taste of the original ingredients, it’s this own unique finally flavored strongly flavored thing and I really began to see that that has so much to do with what makes work publishable.

So that was a huge takeaway I got

Emma Dhesi  07:54

Okay. Well, that’s, that’s interesting. You said that, because I was thinking my head when you were talking, I was thinking or what’s turning words into an art form, which perhaps is not always the most accessible, but you’re you’re consuming notes more publishable which would kind of suggest that it is more accessible than when it’s when it’s distilled that…

Susan DeFreitas  08:17

That was, yes. You know, that’s interesting. Because, certainly, you know, some people take the poet’s approach, you know, and then they do focus on that lyricism and those, those wild turns of phrase, you know, but, but at its heart, this is a process that can apply to to the most straightforward nonfiction writing there is it’s simply efficient, and it doesn’t waste your time as a reader and and that communicates respect, you know, for the readers time that especially with fiction, you know, where it’s not as if you’re reading a how to manual, you know, on how to accomplish something in your life, like I help self help book or, or prescriptive nonfiction.

You are, someone is asking you to pay attention to something they entirely imagined, you know, well, while your your kids need a snack, and you know, the laundry is not done and you’ve got a text from your boss, like, you really owe it to your reader not to waste their time and to communicate very clearly and authority that says, I have a story. You know, I have something astounding to tell you.

I have a secret. You must know what this is, you know, and, and yeah, distilled prose that’s…

Emma Dhesi  09:12

Gives me chills. Just keep talking about the idea of this being something so special. I love it. I love it. I’ve got slightly sidetracked what I was very interested in what you’re saying.

But what I my next question was going to be something I’d read on your website and you described one of your professional values as being literary citizenship and I wondered what that what that means for you?

Susan DeFreitas  10:07

You know, it is, um, it’s a term that is an, you know, well in circulation these days in literary communities, and I’m happy to see that, um, and it means different things to different people.

But one of the best ways I think I can characterize it is talking about some of the differences I’ve observed between the more academic MFA, you know, literary circles, and those associated with speculative fiction, which is one of my great loves write science fiction and fantasy, and all of its various derivatives, imaginative fiction, and what I saw in the more academic world, where people were, you know, competing for those top prizes, and, and really, you know, in workshops with each other, yeah, there’s a, there’s a tendency to be a little competitive, you know, and, and with it, a real tendency to judge your work intensely based on that of others.

And also to judge your fellow writers there were, you know, based on your standards, and your ideas and your concerns, etc. Um, and it’s natural, and it’s human, but it’s a, it’s an, I’m not convinced that that serves us, you know, as people, as artists, or as a culture and it was a revelation to me when I attended some of my first cons, as they’re called, you know, I was a presenter up at Norwescon in Seattle, which, which does a wide variety of fabulous, I mean, the Northwest is just lousy with amazing speculative writers. You know, mmm Neil Stevenson. And, of course, Ursula Gwyn used to live there. God bless her.

And she, she passed, I don’t know if you heard just a few years back. And I’m actually in the process of editing an anthology and tribute to her work. Absolutely a writer who both literary and speculative. But what I saw in that community was that no matter how well published, no matter how many of the top awards, you know, the writers there had won, they were fans first. Right.

And nobody was above, you know, standing in the hallway, having a drawn out conversation with some young geek, about the influence of Pope, you know, on on the genre, or, or, you know, Heinlein or, or their love for, you know, the cJ cherryh, or the feminist themes and first of all, the Gwen’s work, and I thought, this is it, this is the ideal, right, is that we are fans first and we are artists second and the love and the passion that we have for for the work that has inspired us and made us you know, that is what we share with a 14 year old kid who has just read the first book that lived their world on and we are still those, no matter how far we become, or, or if we’re just beginning, you know, there’s a kind of level levelness to it that I found inspiring, and I thought I will serve literary culture.

You know, until then, I’d wanted so badly again, I’d started quite young, feeling like, Oh, I’m a prodigy, or whatever, because I was gifted or whatever. And I had disappointed some of my greatest hopes, you know, by the time I was 30, and also went through these workshops, where I learned that, you know, my work really was not the genius thing that I had thought it was.

But I thought, you know, what, that’s an illusion, that wasn’t the goal to begin with. That’s not what I should aim for. There. There is no lack of ways for me to be part of this conversation. So that’s when I began reading, or working as a reader for magazines. Right. You know, I it was also when I was learning my trade as an editor and learning to serve other writers in strengthening their work.

I wrote book reviews, you know, and so I really just, I began teaching, you know, to a certain extent to especially working with young people. I work every year teaching Institute at at interlocking during the summer program on the novel for teenagers with kids in junior high, you know, teaching them about the uses of the imagination in fiction, you know, I just began to see that it was so much bigger then my personal vision as an artist, and that has been the entire key to what to, to establishing, honestly, the beautiful literary life that I have.

Emma Dhesi  15:15

Oh, beautiful, lovely. Um, well, talking about your the Super relife, your novel hot season was winner of the 2017 is gold independent Publishers Association Award for Best fiction of the Mountain West.

So I wonder if you could tell us about the book and where the inspiration for it came from?

 Susan DeFreitas  15:35

Sure. Yeah. So I shared a little bit with you about my, you know, the process of going through my MFA program. And, you know, when I came into that program, I thought, you know, I’m the kind of person who has far too many ideas for books, you know, people who struggle for ideas, I find it amazing and mysterious that anyone has this problem, I have so many, I’ll never be able to get to them all.

But out of all possible ideas that I had, I thought, you know, I’m just learning how how to outer really, right now and workshops are, they tend to work better for short stories than they do for novels, right. So I will write a novel.

In stories, I was intrigued by the Linked Story form, which I’d studied in undergrad, and I thought, you know, this is a way that I can sort of have my cake and eat it too.

You know, even even if the novel winds up being a complete train wreck, I figured I would still be able to take it apart and use some parts, right, maybe still managed to publish your story or to still manage to get a leg up that way, because up till that point, in my life, I had only published nonfiction and poetry.

Um, so I wrote a series of stories that was based on events in my own life, and in that in the lives of people I knew at the time, through through my somewhat, you know, bohemian 20s, where I and, you know, a group of young people, all summer associated graduates of Prescott college, you know, we were living in a certain neighborhood in prescot, it was a barrio, is a diverse neighborhood.

And we were very concerned with ecological and environmental issues, you know, Prescott college is known for its its focus on the environment. So you study that, regardless of whatever your subject matter is, regardless of whether you’re going to school for creative writing, or education or science, you study the environment and the human impact on it.

So, you know, I, my friends, were artists, they were activists, they were, they were people who were wanted to be farmers, you know, small scale urban agriculture folks, you know, and it was interesting and inspiring, and, you know, at times ironic group of people to be around, you know, because we were all trying, we’re all idealists, you know, focused on these causes.

We’re also just young people making mistakes, and, you know, having romances and intrigues and all that. But the real inspiration for that first book came one. This is a true story, one of the alumns from our school, um, he had started kind of activist community center in town, and then that the place was raided by the FBI.

Oh, and as it turned out, he was one of America’s Most Wanted, were having been part of a group responsible, they, you know, they were known as eco terrorists. Okay. Right and they had they had gone beyond activism and, and gone into what’s called monkey wrenching right where they had during the 90s you know, they had done quite a lot of damage to a lot of, you know, buildings and equipment owned by corporations that they had deemed to be, you know, highly destructive to the earth among them timber companies in the up in Eugene Area anyways, you know, I that event was so dramatic, it, okay, and this is really.

I got a little choked up thinking about this because this guy was a friend of mine, you know, who’s a friend of a lot of our None of us knew this about him his past, all of the people who had been part of the group that he had been part of, they were known as the family and they were all anonymous. In their identities with each other, they had all wound up serving life sentences in federal prisons where they remain and so he was the last of the group to fall in that Domino chain.

And so rather than allow that to happen to himself, he took his own life.

 Emma Dhesi  20:32

 I’m sorry to hear that.

 Susan DeFreitas  20:35

And it just rocked our community, because it brought up questions about where do you draw the line? and your commitment to the cause? And, you know, yes, this is this is a matter of life and death in the long run for this planet, but how extreme are you? You know, and how does temperament play into it.

And all of these things make this book sound very serious and dramatic, but really my angle on it was, was that at that time, I had two young roommates, I had graduated already, I had two roommates who were still enrolled in school and they told me they got a message from the dean, alerting the student body that undercover agents had been enrolled, and were enrolled, enrolled in classes. So imagine how that affected you know, undergraduate romances at this.

We don’t know who is who. So I haven’t told you much about the plot of the book at all, but I hope it’s given you it’s taste, it’s really…

 Emma Dhesi  21:36

Behind the story is just as good. Yeah.

 Susan DeFreitas  21:41

This real life event. Yeah. Let’s say it’s a humorous story about some dark things…

 Emma Dhesi  21:48

I am intrigued, I’m definitely getting myself a copy now. Okay, so that said, yeah, that’s conference and dark stuff.

But here’s a humorous story you say? And do you do is that’s kind of one of his, like, a style of viewers that you like using humor?

And because you’ve also written around and about kind of fairy stories? And so do you bring your humor into those as well.

 Susan DeFreitas  22:16

You know, I really, I really feel that I do work in very different forms. And I, you know, I honestly would say, I mean, sometimes with the fairytales it’ll creep in, you know, but, um, it’s really, I suit my, my approach to my subject matter.

And in that first book, and the book I’m working on now, I told you, I was working on linked stories, that was one manuscript that I’ve been broke into three sections. And the first section became my first book. I’m now working on the on the next for that project, you know, as Bonnie Guit is, in my year, you know, Tom Robbins is in my ear, even Brod again, who was more experimental is in my ear. And those, those guys are all very funny.

You know, um, yeah. Abby and John Nichols, two, two icons of the Southwest literature that are seldom read outside of this part of the of the US, they’re both very, very funny people, you know, who wrote about, you know, yeah, the environment monkey wrenching and about, you know, they, they took on that serious subject matter environment, you know, and in the fight to save a land and landscapes, you know, from that humorous perspective.

And so it just, that’s what came to me when I tried to write about these things. But when, you know, when I write right now, I’m working on a series that fairy tales that deal with climate change, right, um, that for those tales, I’m going to assume the tone of the classic fairy tales that I grew up with, they have a certain amount of repetition, they have a certain lack of embroidery about that, you know, they have a certain, I guess, maybe implied humor, but there’s also just a brutality in fairy tales you know, where…

 Emma Dhesi  24:20

I think we, we don’t I think, these days, we don’t know, we don’t realize that everything has been defined so much that I haven’t studied it myself.

But I believe if you go back to the originals, they’re really really dark, dark stories…

 Susan DeFreitas  24:34

Especially the ones Disney has has mined the most which are brands, you know, grams are quite grim. You know, I the, the tale I have up now the Seven Sisters, Seven ravens in their sister, you know, that’s it, there’s a turn in the story where the heroine cuts off her own finger and uses it as a key to open In the door,

and that’s the sort of unthinking violence that, you know, fairy tales, it is the natural province of fairy tales to deal with the dark and I feel like, you know, with climate change, or we’re not good at thinking about, about the dark in a way that that is not, you know, sensational, you know, in a way that isn’t, you know, the sort of turns you might see on on television or, or movies, like, what it really like,

getting to the heart of, you know, this is actually a feature of existence, you know, that we are animals and, and we’re subject to, to, to these pains and, and horrors, and I think it suits the truths of climate change.

We’re just now starting to get hold of these, you know, that things are coming down the line, you know, big forces on, on, on par with the method on what on par with our human history, when there were still wolves and beasties out the door, you know, I think we need these sorts of Tales, to prepare us.

And, and not to get too grim, but to prepare our children, you know, because fairy tales, in many ways have been our way of preparing our children. For for the, for the dark truths of human existence.

You know, when you think about a story, like blue beard, you know, you know, and the way you know, the, the young girl marries the Lord and his castle, and there’s a room that is only one room is forbidden to her. You know, when she opens it, she finds the dead bodies of all of his previous wives.

You know, there’s there’s a kernel at the heart of that, that is speaking to girls about the violence that is potential within romance, and marriage, you know. And so, you know, I’m just interested in the way that these forms might help us to prepare ourselves, you know,

 Emma Dhesi  27:11

I like that correlation you’ve made, you know, it’s, it’s easy to kind of look back and see that, okay, yeah, fairytales served a purpose. At a time when life was a lot harder. Life was tougher. There wasn’t too much pleasure going on. It was it was a hard grind.

And I can see them that by taking fairytales now and pushing them into the future rather than the past. And what might happen in the future, if we don’t heed the warnings that we’re seeing coming now that there’s really good.

Oh, what’s the word I’m looking for? It’s, it’s, it’s giving imagery, I guess it’s storytelling in a more accessible way, in a less moralistic way that we see on the news about chatting as we’re doing everything wrong.

But actually, if your story is more engaging, we’re more open to it more receptive, and we can digest it in our own way, and then come to conclusions about Yeah, what does this mean for the future for me, for my children, my grandchildren?

Because Oh, actually, I was just talking to my husband about this the other day, just saying, oh, we’re all right. We’ll be dead before all this happens.

But it is the next two or three generations down that are going to bear the brunt of what we’re doing. And the two Gen two, three generations before.

Yeah, is like I hadn’t seen fairytales in that way before and so so thank you for that. That’s given me a whole new perspective on them. Yeah.

You mentioned before that you you do write in many different forms, some long form like your novel, some more shorts and experimental. Can you kind of talk a little bit more about the different forms that appeal to you?

Interview with environmental writer Susan DeFreitas.

Susan DeFreitas  28:52

Oh, sure. Um, yes, you know, I do write novels. And with the series that I’m working on now, again, I am taking linked stories, and, and rewriting them as novels, but in so doing, you know, part of what I it’s a maddening process, but part of what I really love about it is the way of bits and pieces, you know, chapters from other point of view characters remain in the novel,

even even though you know, in the revision, the protagonist has a clear art, there is that rising action towards a point of climax, you know, there is a main storyline, but because I wrote these as linked stories, they’re almost asides, you know, where another character will have a chapter in a way that survives on or develops and, and so let’s say that I’m enjoying the way that those things work together.

And I’m continuing to work with that form. in that series I have on the backburner a more traditional, traditionally structured sci fi novel, dealing with artificial intelligence, although that moves back and forward in time, in a certain way.

I also write short stories, you know, straight ahead, not linked stories, I have a collection I’ve been working on called dream studies.

And you know, one of my mentors in graduate school said in an assessment, Susan has a strong tendency for formal experimentation.

And I thought I didn’t know that about myself before, you know, but it caused me to really embrace it. Even though the stories in Dream Dream studies are traditional story, short stories, and they are not linked. So when I came up with them, you know, I was recovering from surgery.

And I really had to have to sit and just be, you know, and not be at the computer to so I sat in the backyard of a notebook, and I’ve really been interested in the idea of a static, what do you like, what, what do you just enjoy?

You know, I kind of had it with the grind of submission schedule, and graduate school, it sucks some of the joy out of the process for me, so I wanted that job back. And to me, aesthetic is where the joy lies, right? So I made a list of things.

What do you like in your fiction season? I like books about books. I like libraries. I like architecture, I like odd buildings. I like secret messages.

You know, I like notes. Um, you know, I could go on, I like dreams, let’s say that too. And, you know, I made a list of all these things. And me, you know, what I did was that I just said, uh, pick this thing here, this thing here, I circle them.

And I came up with the plot for a short story, I did that I came up with 12 plots in the course of three days. And then I spent the next three years just writing them.

And so all of these stories, they’re, they mirror each other in these ways, these themes run through them in a way that I don’t think would have arisen naturally.

Or, or through a different process. So that’s one thing. I also love flash fiction, you know, and I developed, I have developed various different forms for it, um, much in the way a, you know, a sonnet is a form for a poem or a villain malice, I thought, why not have some forms for flash fiction or the lyric essay?

So I had developed a number of those for my patreon last year.

 Emma Dhesi  32:58

Okay, so yeah, I’ve been fascinated by this.

So we do kind of expand on particularly the one that you mentioned on Patreon is the Fibonacci Spiral. Wonder if you tell me about that.

 Susan DeFreitas  33:11

Yes, um, you know, I, and it should be obvious. I’m a geek, you know, being a fan of science fiction I thought I was making here. And I’ve always been fascinated by forming patterns in nature.

And so a Fibonacci spiral. For those who don’t know, it’s a, it is a form that arises everywhere in nature. And, and in art, too, you know, that it’s a sort of spiral pattern that corresponds to the golden mean, which, you know, Da Vinci used in his, in many of his paintings and is still use, you know, it’s a form that we tend to find beautiful.

If you think of the pattern of, of a Fern, a Fern observes a Fibonacci sequence in the way that it’s small leaves become bigger, right?

So a Fibonacci sequence is, is a number pattern in mathematics, where the sum of each of the two numbers, well, the easiest way to explain it is say, your first number is zero, right?

And say your second number is one, add zero plus one, you get one, right? But then for the next number, you add one plus one, you get two, right? Two plus one, you get three, three, you take the last two numbers, and you add them and what starts very small, soon becomes exponentially much larger.

Okay, right. So, you know, I’m not a mathematician, and I’m not explaining As well as I would like to, but I thought why not apply this to work counts, you know, and work in sections.

And so I would, I would just set a title for, for a piece of flash fiction or a lyric essay, often based on a fairy tale and set that the word count of the title as my first in the sequence, ok and then I would reproduce that same number count in section one, but then section two, the word count would be the sum of the word counts of the title and the first section and so you It starts off in practice, you know, again, it’s a bit of a game, play it out, see how see how it goes.

In practice, it winds up being that you sort of make a statement, you make a statement with your title, you make a statement with your first section, and then you elaborate on a gross, two sentences or three.

And before you know it, it ends, you know, wherever you choose to end, you know, Fibonacci sequence has no end, it just keeps, you know, the numbers keep getting larger and larger but wherever you choose to end, it has the sense of being a rush, you know, your, your words are tumbling, oh, what started very terse, and very distill, then becomes this, this whole onra of, of images and words and story that you’re sharing.

And then that I felt like it, it almost felt like a conversation, you know, especially with someone new, where you start off somewhat feeling each other out, but you become more comfortable.

And before you know it, you’re telling this long winded, you know, story from deep, you know, in your childhood, and you’re, you’re feeling so connected, or, you know, it really, it was a thought experiment, that when I played it out, I thought this is fun.

And this is really interesting. And I’m just very fascinated by where this form can take me. So, again, with fairy tales, I found it easy,

I don’t have to think too much about what to say, in part because my word counts are set for me, you know, I’m it occupies the part of the brain that’s analytical, and it I feel like it kind of keeps you from thinking too much about what you’re writing, right, disarming your inner editor.

Um, and you know, fairy tales are a subject that are so deep seated for me that I can riff on them. I don’t have to think too much about that, either.

So what’s what has been on earth through this process is often surprising to me. And I love that.

 Emma Dhesi  37:47

Oh, cool. Well, so and people can find out about that on your Patreon account company. Very cool. I love it. I love it. And now you mentioned did you mention it?

But I’m gonna Well, if not, I’m going to change tack again, and talk more about what you kind of do now and what you do with other writers, which is predominantly coaching and editing. Is that right?

 Susan DeFreitas  38:13

That’s right.

 Emma Dhesi  38:14

Yeah. And so what kind of stories do you like to work with that other people are writing?

Susan DeFreitas  38:19

Yeah, that’s, that’s great subject and I love that we have had this conversation about, you know, all these experimental forums where we were chatting before this interview,

I thought it was saying how it’s, it’s somewhat ironic, because so much of what I do is, is coach people through an understanding of traditional structure for the novel, you know, in to support them, you know, in their pursuit of landing, the first book deal, which is something I feel very passionate about is helping people break through into publishing.

So, a lot of what I do you know, it is brass tacks, it is basics, you know, but but as I understand them, which, you know, I, I there are so many forms people talk about right, and so many forms that are quite effective there’s three act structure those four act structure and one of your previous interviews you you mentioned that with it’s like a grid structure right there there’s the save the cat you know, yeah.

Oh, this is derived from movies. There’s, there’s the, the hero’s journey, which is derived from mythic cycles. I think they are all fabulous, you know, and they all work you know, if your story fits into those one of those formats, you can take it to the bank because they are tried and true.

But I am, I’m feel very passionately about the fact that not every, none of those structures will fit every story. Right? So my approach to, to coaching people and and helping people as an editor with their novels is to focus on three fundamental things.

Okay, which I think are the broad spectrum, you know, yeah, biotic, they will hear most, most of the ills that that can afflict a manuscript. Okay, number one is plot the causality of how one thing leads to another, you know, and how tight they are in time, right?

That’s the pacing, right? How clearly connected how the story logic is, right. So number one, how the plot connects number two, the character are. And I, I, I put that first honestly, though, most people think of plot first, because I’m a, I’m a protege of Lisa Kron great story, coach.

She’s also one of my book coaching clients, you know, and good friend, you know, I am a huge believer in what she has on Earth, about the brain science of fiction, which is that it’s not about what happens, it’s about how it changes the protagonists. It’s about who it happens to write.

And it’s about how it pushes the event, the external events, push the protagonist to grow and change, and come to understand something that they did not before, you know, come to understand, you know, on a deeper level, that something that they have held to be true, is just not true at all.

Because that’s where the emotional catharsis lies in that realization, you know, and it’s also where we derive meaning from fiction, because that’s the part that we can take for ourselves, the events of a particular story, you know, we’ll probably will probably never encounter those events in our own lives.

But that internal truth, and that change in perspective, that’s the part that we can use. That’s the part that makes us wiser, stronger, better, more empathetic, you know, that is really what we are reading for, whether we realize it or not, the plot sort of the fireworks to capture your attention, right?

This is the thing that we we really read for and then finally, the part that makes the story legible to the reader, which is, is the goals and motivations of the protagonist, if you don’t know what somebody wants, or what they’re trying to achieve, you can’t tell what what’s even supposed to be happened.

Right. So those are the those are the big three that I focus on in my approach to structure. And what I love the types of stories I love to work on, are literary stories, and speculative stories, and those that blur the bounds in between, you know, but particularly, I love to work with writers from historically marginalized backgrounds.

So that’s writers of color, that’s women, that’s folk from folks from the LGBTQ spectrum, you know, a differently abled folks, you know, this is the time where we must hear those voices, those voices must be in the conversation.

And as a writer of color myself, you know, I am here for that, you know, I am here to support that and then also, you know, just writers who actively seek to engage with the most pressing issues of our day, you know, and that’s sexism, that’s racism, that’s the environmental crisis, that’s, you know, poverty and, you know, economic disparity like, these,

I do not believe I do not accept that those are not subjects worthy of literature, of the best literature, you know, and I am here to support our writers doing that work and bringing them into the conversation.

 Emma Dhesi  44:13

Fantastic and let me ask, do you do you see a change happening in the landscape that way?

Do you see more people coming in from these different backgrounds, different experiences, and kind of the subject matter of poverty or environments of racism, sexism, do you see that growing and we are kind of moving in the right way?

Susan DeFreitas  44:36

I feel that we are but you know, at this time, I feel that fiction is is behind nonfiction. You know, if you look at you know, the bestsellers and nonfiction you know, these are our books about here and here in the US.

We have books like how to be an anti racists, you know, We are both like as Elizabeth Wilkerson’s cast, we have hillbilly ologies, you know, dealing with the the political split and the economic situation, in our rural areas, you know, we these, we are in the midst of an intense, you know, social justice movements, environmental justice movements, you know, that’s what’s happening in our culture right now, that’s what’s in the conversation.

And nonfiction is getting there quicker than fiction. And that, and that should add, that should be no surprise, because fiction takes longer to cook down, it takes, it takes longer to turn experience, into the stuff of fiction, you know, grapple with meanings, you know, and their impacts these sorts of issues, impacts on the lives of real people and generations, you know, yeah, so it’s not surprising to me, but we need to get there, you know, writers, we need to get there.

And if you are writing, you know, anybody writing any kind of story at this time, there is a way that your work can intersect with these issues, whatever, whatever particular issue you are most passionate about, right now, you can find a way to get there, you know, within without changing in huge part, you know, your concerns or your approach, you know, and I encourage everybody to do that. But I think, you know, things are changing.

Slowly, you know, partially in the publishing industry, as we get more women in in gatekeeping positions, as we head slow, more people of color and gatekeeping positions right now, it seems as if there’s far more agents of color than editors, acquisitions, but, you know, I do what I’m seeing and hearing from my agent friends right now, is that I’m part part of what’s getting sold and part of the shift is that you know, it, we’re still selling straight ahead romances, but, you know, their romances,

I love the work of my client, Iai delion. You know, she she writes a feminist romances that, you know, the protagonists are like, former sex workers, you know, they’re, they’re women of color there, there are women from marginalized backgrounds. You know, she writes, heists, and thrillers, where they’re, they’re taking on, you know, they’re, they’re robbing the rich white guys, they’re, they’re funding public clinics, and, and this is straight head romance, or it’s straight ahead, thriller,

I think that’s so subversive, and it’s so brilliant, you know, and, yeah, I was talking with a friend of mine, who’s an agent of a couple of weeks ago, we were having zoom drinks.

And, you know, she is saying, you know, what I’m looking for what I’ve really been able to sell are, you know, the, the Y A stories that are, you know, their own voices, you know, they have protagonists with color, or the, or were protagonists, or, you know, there’s some angle again, it’s not as if the whole structure has changed,

there’s still say, a romance at the heart of it, or we’re coming of age, you know, but, you know, the kids might be activists or they might be, there’s all these different ways that these, these pressing issues of our day, are, are now coming into fiction, and I think it’s fascinating that it seems to be coming from genre, you know, genres sort of taking a chance that way, because, again, genre is like, its form, right?

Like I was talking about a sonnet or a villanelle. As long as you observe the dictates of form, you can kind of put whatever you want to and yeah, you know, and I love the way that form, you know, traditional tropes are being subverted within genre fiction, right.

 Emma Dhesi  49:28

So that begs the question then, in the sort of literary circles, then why is it not happening there so much Is it because of the people who are at the top and literary circles and making the decisions about what’s bought and sold, that they are of an older type and diverse themselves and so they’re not interested in writing and reading about more diverse characters.

 Susan DeFreitas  49:58

I, You know, I can’t really say exactly what it is, some of it is that that top shelf, you know, literature is dominated by people who went through MFA programs. MFA programs have been pretty white, you know, but beyond that, I received this signal very clearly and I mentioned that earlier.

There is a an unspoken element of, oh, academic, creative writing workshops in this country that signals to the young writers who may be interested in particularly the political issues, but that is not a proper subject for good art.

Okay, it’s changed a bit. When it comes, it’s changed a good amount actually, when it comes to, to racism, sexism, because those are so called identity. Politics.

Right, right. Or queer stories? Like if it if it is primarily about the individual, then yes, this has been allowed into the Canon and yes, now we have, you know, these top shelf stories coming, you know, books, winning awards coming out about such things, you know, but it’s still very rare.

I will point to Richard powers, astounding book, The overstory, you know, that, that book breaks form, in that it’s not about just one protagonist, you know, and its subject is forest is the forest.

And its role in human health, civilization, culture, well being, you know, there’s no way he could tell that story in a more traditional way.

And, you know, if that had been his first book, I, I doubt he would have broken through it, you know, and I think, you know, in many ways, it’s time of people like him, you know, who whose credentials are unassailable, you know, and who’s so well established,

I think, are, are helping to broaden this idea of what, what you can write about, you know, and still be can have it be considered great art, you know, or high art.

And, you know, not to go on too much about it, because I could, this is a subject I’m very passionate about, too. But that signal that politics is not proper two to two literature, is based in the origins of the US MFA program, start the Iowa Writers Workshop, which was developed as a way to counter Soviet era propaganda, right?

Because the USSR demanded of its artists that they prop, that they propped up their political agenda. So the US aesthetic was very consciously crafted to, to have nothing to do with that, to focus only on the individual, you know.

And I really think it’s time to push back against that. Absolutely. So that’s my soapbox now.

Emma Dhesi  53:38

Well, I’m just conscious of time because it’s a very, you know, it’s an emotive subject, and it’s very, kind of relevant here and no, so, but I am conscious of time, so I’m gonna and I want people to find out more about you, and where they can find out if they’re interested in working with you or more about your written work and self, where can they find out about you online?

 Susan DeFreitas  54:00

Well, the best way to find everything about me is on my website, which is just my name, SusanDeFreitas.com.

You’ll also find me on Patreon. I believe that’s patreon.com/SusanDeFreitas.

It might be reversed and might be afraid, Susan is one of those, go to patreon that I’ll link to.

That’s where you’ll find all my strange little fairy tales and Fibonacci spirals and such and, yeah.

 Emma Dhesi  54:32

Brilliant. That’s lovely. Susan, I really appreciate your time and, and sharing so many of your thoughts and your ideas with me and your, your experimental approach to the writing forum.

So thank you so much.

 Susan DeFreitas  54:45

Well, thank you so much for just a fabulous conversation.

 Emma Dhesi  54:50

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational.

Now, don’t forget to come on over to Facebook and Join my group, Turning readers into writers. It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel.

If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet.

They’re called three secret hacks to write with consistency.

So go to emmadeshi.com/turning readers into writers.

Hit join. Can’t wait to see you in there.

All right. Thank you. Bye bye

If this interview with Susan DeFreitas was useful, you’ll love:

• How to co-write a novel with author and podcaster Crys Cain – EMMA DHESI
• Interview with Asian American poet and writer Dr Stephanie Han – EMMA DHESI
• Clarity and Confidence with Non-Fiction Book Coach Andrea Glass – EMMA DHESI

Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

Interview with September C. Fawkes

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome. And here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focus on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com, where you’ll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started.

Before we dive in, this week’s episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write. In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life. I know you might be thinking that you don’t have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn’t think you had.

If you thought writing always involved a pen and paper or a keyboard. Think again. If you thought you needed at least an hour at a time to write your manuscript. I help you reframe that you won’t be disappointed. Get your free copy of 30 Top Tips to find time to write by going to emmadhesi.com /30 Top Tips

Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

September C. Fawkes approach to editing has been described as thorough, precise and kind. She has worked in the fiction writing industry for over eight years, and has been editing stories for even longer than that.

She has edited for both award winning and best selling authors, and has worked on manuscripts written for middle grade young adult and adult readers.

With most of her experience being in the genres of fantasy and science fiction. Previous to freelance editing, she was mentored by a creative writing professor, and award winning international best selling author and a professional editor.

So let’s delve into today’s episode where September gives us a one on one tutorial on the different types of cliffhanger there are and when and if you should use them to let’s find out more.

Well, welcome, September. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It’s really great to have you here.

September C. Fawkes  02:46

Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

 Emma Dhesi  02:49

And so I’d love to just start with our unit. You know, what was your journey to writing to publication to editing? How did you get to where we are now?

 September C. Fawkes  02:57

Yeah, so I’m kind of one of those I feel like it’s a little cliche, always wanted to work in this industry always wanted to write or edit. And really, I wrote my first story when I was like seven and I was like hooked, and I edited it to has like, in fact, my mom was really smart. So she kept it, we still have it and I have an amoled binder It was about chickens or something because we own chickens.

But anyway, I had like blocked out like lines I have, you know changed or whatever so has like all this stuff crossed out and like things are misspelled. But anyway, so that was kind of my first experience with that and I was kind of hooked after that. Um, sometimes I feel like people get this idea though that you have to have quote like always wanted, you know, to be in this industry to be successful.

I don’t feel that way at all. But I kind of was interested in that all growing up from that from that first time and knew this is kind of my planet was I wanted to work in this industry with have with that said I didn’t have a lot of you know, any kind of professional training or anything like that going on. Luckily now we have so much stuff on the internet, like even this podcast back, which I feel like wasn’t that long ago.

But even just like when I was growing up, I didn’t have access to a lot of those things on the internet wasn’t, you know, on there, I didn’t know where to look. So like I did it. Like I would write and my friends would share stories and things all the time. But I still felt like as I became an adult I wanted to get serious into it. In some ways. I feel like I still had to start at the beginning because I didn’t have all that, you know, I don’t have any training or mentorship.

I shouldn’t say I didn’t have any you know, because obviously, I took English classes and stuff growing up, but I still had a lot to learn. So from there, I went to college and I got my degree in English. And so that’s when I kind of started getting more of a sense of kind of professional or industry and what’s expected and I became the managing first I was the fiction editor.

And then I was the managing editor of their literary journal. So I kind of did that and had that experience. And then after college, I started working as an assistant for New York Times bestselling writer, his name is David Farland. He also does freelance editing. So, um, after working for him for a while, he had me start going through manuscripts, um, first, you know, and then he kind of go through after, so I kind of got more editing experience with that, I started my blog.

And that’s been a great little project where I just share my ideas about writing or what I’ve learned about writing on the hire. And from there, I started doing my own freelance editing services. So now, I’ve worked for myself that way, and I edit people’s manuscripts that way.

So it’s kind of the basic journey, I guess. I don’t know if you have any additional questions or anything about that, but that’s kind of my story. Yeah.

 Emma Dhesi  06:00

Cool. Yeah, no, we’ll do I’ll follow up on that a bit. Later on, we’ll get further along. But you mentioned your, your website there. I know, you’ve got two websites. One is predominantly your blog, which we’ll come to. But the other one is sort of more for your, the editing work that you do people specifically looking for an editor, you also have this great page on that website called writing tips.

And when I was looking through it, I love what I love about it is you’ve broken it down into different sections. So you might have you know, how to write the beginning of your book, How to brainstorm how to write about characters or write dialogue, such a useful index such a useful resource, and what prompts you to put it all together like that? So was there a sort of a crying demand for it?

 September C. Fawkes  06:51

Um, I think just, I thought would be helpful. Okay. Well, I will say part of it’s also for me, as I like to have these things organized on a website. So I can just go click and look for what I’m looking for wherever I’m at. But I just thought it would be really helpful to have things a lot of things that were organized by topic, just when we’re kind of scrolling through, you know, on a website.

Okay, here’s the topic that I’m looking at, here’s different, you know, things that I can click on. A lot of them are, well, most of them are really are articles that I’ve written from my blog. But I do have some other articles in there that I often refer people to that maybe already explained something that, you know, I haven’t written something on, or they’ve already done a good job on explaining it.

So I’ll send them there. Some of them are just articles, like when I’m editing that I might suggest to people who are working on certain things. And I just think that’s kind of a helpful way to learn more about the craft, and like, have it organized in that way you can go on there, you can learn more about the craft and kind of help. I mean, it’s great to have an editor, but you also need to know like the craft yourself, obviously.

And it’s good to be like a self editor too. So the idea for that is just to make it more accessible. And so people can look up, like whatever topic they’re struggling with, they can go read about it. And hopefully, I mean, I feel like there’s a lot of stuff on there. But I keep, you know, keep updated and keep trying to add to it. So there’s

 Emma Dhesi  08:15

There’s more there is there’s a lot of stuff. And I’m gonna link specifically to that page for people I really think people should go and take a look at it will be a real, just one of those tabs you can have open on your desktop. So you can refer to that regularly.

I think it’s great. But they do have your blog, as we’ve mentioned before, and it’s a fantastic blog, because a prize winning an award winning blog today, yeah…

 September C. Fawkes  08:40

Well, yeah, it’s funny about that. So it’s a Writer’s Digest, which if people don’t know, it’s a pretty well known magazine for fiction writing. They do awards every year. And it’s funny because I had this dream that maybe someday, you know, when soared. And I guess I want it but I didn’t know, I don’t know how that happened.

And so it wasn’t till like months and months later, I found out on accident that I had won. And so that was really exciting for me. So yeah, I did win the Writer’s Digest award so that was fun, exciting so…

 Emma Dhesi  09:16

Well, I’m not surprised. It’s really great. And I am on your mailing list. And and I got, you know, an email come through to tell me about the most recent one, which is about cliffhangers and we were chatting just before we press record that that is not often you see something written about cliffhanger. So I was really intrigued to to read it.

And it seems that they’re quite contentious that some people love to have a cliffhanger in the book at the end of the chapter perhaps. And then others really don’t like it at all. So I wondered what your opinion was on it. You know, is it ever good to use a cliffhanger or generally they should be avoided? What do you think?

September C. Fawkes  09:56

Yeah, yeah, it is funny because I have talked to people that have Very strong feelings about Cliff fingers, which is a little I think it’s a little funny, but I mean, I can get it. You know, people don’t like having to wait or whatever. Um, but I’m actually I actually like Cliff fingers.

Both definitely, you know, as somebody who’s working on a project to make it better. But also, I don’t know, even as an audience member, I like them. And I like to hate them sometimes.

Because you’re kind of like, oh, why do I have to wait, you know? And so sometimes I wonder for some people, my Do you really absolutely hate them? Or do you like to hate them? I don’t know. But people usually a lot of people have strong feelings about them. Um, one of the common things that people say about cliffhangers is that, you know, it’s good to have a cliffhanger to get the audience to start the next chapter, or turn the page or start the next episode.

And that’s absolutely true. I mean, obviously, if you’re going to suddenly cut something off that somebody the audience really wants to know, and you cut away from the narrative, they’re going to want to see what happens next. And, um, so it is really effective that way, but I kind of feel like saying, that’s the only way it’s effective. I feel like that, to me, that feels a little shallow. I feel like there’s more to it than that.

And I mean, you could just add a bunch of tried to add a bunch of cliffhangers and then still have enough be a great story, you know, and so, um, I feel like, another good way to use them is when you have a cliffhanger, I guess the audience a second to pause and think about what’s happening, or what they think is gonna happen.

And so like maybe a good example of this as if you’re writing like a murder mystery, you know, and they’re about to figure out who the murderer is, maybe they’re about to mask them, you cut away.

So there’s a cliffhanger that gives the audience a second to kind of pause and think, who do I think is under the mask who do I think is the murderer. And usually, like, the cliffhanger is going to come out of like, every, you know, obviously a powerful moment, because we want to see what happened that what happens next. And so sometimes I feel like the audience will just want to keep, you know, pushing reading through it, which is okay, we want them to feel that way.

But when you have a cliffhanger, they’re forced to kind of stop and think for themselves. And so that’s an example of like, you know, maybe thinking, like predicting we think is going to happen, but sometimes a certain cliffhangers when you stop it makes people kind of self evaluate, or I guess ask themselves like, what, what would I do next? Or how would I get out of the situation.

And I think those two things are really effective. They also, um, in that sense, you’re, you’re inviting the audience to participate in the story. So sometimes I feel like one thing I have to watch out for is we might write stories, that audience feels more like a spectator, as opposed to feeling like they’re kind of like they’re in the story. And so I feel like if you put the cliffhanger in the right spot like that, they’re being asked, they’re being invited, participate more by pausing and thinking, What’s going to happen next.

Beyond that, I think they’re also good for like, and really emphasizing a moment of suspense or shock, or wherever you put it, because that’s a moment the audience has to sit with that a little bit longer.

And obviously, if you have it, like at the end of the chapter, even just that whitespace, of flipping, flipping over to the next chapter, you know, it just kind of adds emphasis to whatever you made a cliffhanger about.

 Emma Dhesi  13:19

Oh, yeah, yeah. I hadn’t thought about it in that, that way, that it’s not just about getting them to turn the page, but actually to have a moment to where Have a think and pause and get almost more involved with the story?

Because they’re thinking about it. Yeah. You mentioned in the article that there are the four types of cliffhangers with that be sort of two of them, or whether they’re more times,

 September C. Fawkes  13:44

I’m kind of Yeah, well, so I will say if you go read up on cliffhangers, people will categorize them differently. So, I mean, this is the way that I categorize them. And it’s kind of based on structure. So um, and story structure, you know, you’re going to have the rising action, the climax and the falling action. That’s kind of the basic structure. And that will be true of the whole plot.

But it’s also true, like on smaller things, like within a scene, you’re going to have like a climactic moment, or within you know, an act. So maybe the beginning, middle and end, there’s going to be a climactic moment within, you know, it’s kind of like I think of it as like a Russian nesting doll that you have the smaller you have smaller shapes and size, the bigger shapes anyway, so the climactic moment is sometimes called like a turning point because it turns the direction of the story.

So it really can turn two ways you can either have like a revelations, like new information enters the story, that changes our understanding or direction of it. The second way is an action, you know, something happens that changes the direction of the story. So um, even on a scene level, you’re gonna have Ideally, if you have things structured well and you have a plot that keeps moving, there’s going to be a turning point or climactic moment in each scene.

So for example, if I’m writing an example would be like if I’m writing a murder mystery story, the climactic moment of the whole story is probably going to be when we figure out who the killers. But if I’m just looking at a scene, you know, maybe the opening scene is when they first discovered the dead body, well, the climactic moment of that scene will probably be will be when the dead bodies discovered. So that kind of creates a climactic.

That’s a turning point, right? Everything’s going fine, we found a dead body Well, now we need to kind of deal with that. So keeping that in mind, so cliffhangers, I feel like get down to knowing where to cut away in the narrative. Because sometimes I feel like we get this idea of Oh, I just need to throw in something, I need to throw something in really shocking. And then cut away.

And like that can work. I’m not saying it can’t work. But ideally, if you have a great plot, and you have your structure there, you’re going to have lots of great moments like that What matters is when you choose to cut away from the narrative. So with that in mind, I kind of have a broken down four ways based on that. So the first one I call like, a pre point, cliffhanger.

So that’s going to be before the turning point. So um, an example I’ll give, I think a lot of people have seen Scooby Doo. Scooby Doo as an example, right? I think most of us are familiar with the general format of those episodes, basically, the Mr. Gang goes out, they find you know, there’s a ghost or there’s a banshee or something.

And towards the end of the episode, they’re gonna mask it and see who it is. So, um, the unmasking is gonna be like the climactic moment the turning point. So a pre point cliffhanger is gonna be okay, Fred’s about to pull off the mask, and then we cut away to a commercial. And so that kind of works in the sense that, well, the audience is really invested, they’re anticipating a certain outcome, we want to know who the ghost is, or whoever, and then we cut away. So that plays into the example I gave earlier.

Well, now we have to sit for a second, and maybe we’ll think about who we think it is, or whatever. So I would call that a pre point. Um, the next one I would call a climactic cliffhanger. So when you get to the climactic moment, the turning point, sometimes in some stories, there will actually be more than one turning point.

So a common thing that happens in a story is near the climax of the whole story, there will be like a character, the protagonist will have a realization that then allows them to decide like take an action to defeat the antagonist, sometimes those can be reverse, but, you know, they realized something, okay, this is what I need to do to defeat the antagonist.

So that’s actually two turns, the realization and the action. So you can create a cliffhanger by cutting those in half. So you could have the character has the realization, boom, cliffhanger. And then when we come back, he’ll take the action. And so that kind of works in that you have kind of a sense, you know, maybe what the character is going to do next.

And we’ll have to kind of sit with that for a second. So it’s kind of possible to cut it like during the climactic moment that way. Um, the next one, the third one I call the post point, so meaning that it happens just after the claim the climactic point or turning point. So going back to our Scooby Doo example, you know, in this scenario, you know, Fred goes over to the ghost unmasks the ghost.

Oh, we see it to George, the electrician, you know, I’m just making this up. The next question we come to is, well, why, you know, why did George do this? What’s the motivation? What, what are the ramifications of this? What are the characters going to do now? And so you can cut away, right when we realize, Oh, it’s George, the electrician, and that can create a good cliffhanger to you know, it’s a little bit different, because we’ve passed over the turning point.

But now we have new questions about well, what’s next? Why did he do it? What was his motivation? And so in a situation like that, um, the audience is waiting for, you know, like an explanation, they’re waiting for meaning, or what’s gonna, you know, what’s the new direction going to be, and so you can cut away right there to kind of leave them sitting with that. Um, then the fourth one, I call the post hook cliffhanger.

So the idea is so the stick you know, rising action, climax or turning point falling action. If you’re working in anything smaller than the whole story, like if you’re working with scenes, this is gonna repeat itself. You know, we’re gonna have a scene that has rising action climax, falling action, the next scene is gonna have rising action, climax, falling action.

And so what happens pins here with the post hook. Usually, at the starting of the scene, you’re gonna have like a hook, hopefully anyway, right? We all like hooks. And, um, what you can do is you can cut right after a hook to create a good cliffhanger because a hook is usually going to be in this situation, usually, it’s gonna be something like unexpected that disrupts what’s going on or what the characters are trying to do. Or might be like laying down the stakes, like, what’s that risk, like, Okay, if we don’t do this, then this terrible thing is going to happen.

And so you can have either of those, and then a cut away right after that create a great cliffhanger. Because now you know, we’ve had the hook, we want to know, what’s going to happen, what’s I guess I would say, what’s the rising action going to be? What are they going to do? And so it’s possible to cut right there.

I feel like we see this a lot in series. And a lot of I don’t know, you could just look at a lot of movies like Pirates of the Caribbean Marvel does stuff like this, where you have like, the whole story. There’s like the falling action, you know, everyone’s Okay, we say everyone or whatever. And then there’ll be like an additional scene where you see, like, the bad guy is still alive, and he’s planning something evil, or, you know, someone else is alive. And they’re like, Hey, we you guys, we need to go do this. Now there’s this other issue.

And then it like cuts off. And so basically, what’s happening there is we had the whole story, we’ve got the climax, we’ve got the falling action. And then we just barely hit a new hook for a new, like rising action, which is probably going to be the next installment, you know. And so by ending the book right there, like that’s a good way to end a book if you want to end on a cliffhanger, because, um, the audience still gets like the full story, and they just get like a hint of what’s gonna come next.

Whereas if you were to just like actually, like cut off the book, like a climactic moment, or just after it, it probably wouldn’t be very satisfying. So if you want to end a book or story with a cliffhanger, it’s probably better to, you know, kind of wrap up that plotline, and then just give enough of a hook or a hint of what’s going to happen next.

And then it. So basically, like, I guess the idea with this is sometimes we think I got to add, I got to add all these cliffhangers or I got to add something really shocking. But the thing is, is when you have these pieces together, those things are already there, you just have to know where to cut it. And so those are like the four places where you could cut away, you might cut to another plotline.

Another viewpoint. I mean, if you’re doing television, I mean, most people are doing books listening, I’m more into the books, but you know, cut to commercial, whatever.

But um, it’s it’s gonna create, I guess, I feel like it won’t create better cliffhangers with less mistakes that can come up when you’re just trying to throw and clear fingers. Yeah, so those are the four types.

How to use a cliffhanger with September C. Fawkes

 Emma Dhesi  22:53

I think that’s amazing. Because it’s, when you when you when you describe it to us like that we got is I’m sure there’ll be a lot of listeners going, Oh, yeah, there’ll be a little aha moment going on.

Yeah, it’s not about having to create this false big moment is actually it’s already there in the script. It’s the editing of the book and positioning or when you as you describe it, that cutaway of the narrative, and just looking for the right point to do that.

That’s brilliant. And also, then you’ve got then you do have moments of those big cliffhangers. And also the smaller ones as well. And so you can vary, I guess the pace with the difference in cliffhangers as well.

 September C. Fawkes  23:36

Yeah, I think so too. I think one thing to be kind of careful with, if you are just like, gonna throw on Clifffingers, which I’m not gonna say is always bad, because sometimes you get like a great idea for a cliffhanger.

And then you can work into the story, you know, but what one thing to be aware of is where a lot of times they go wrong is when cliffhangers writers are just like throwing in the club fingers to just try to get you to keep reading. And like they don’t deliver on what’s promised. You know, so like, um, you know, we could end a scene will not end but we could have a character come into his house and his loved one is like lying there bleeding, you know, we’re like, oh, no. And then you cut away to create a cliffhanger.

And then when we come back, oh, it’s just catch up. She just has ketchup all over her. You know, it’s kind of a letdown. And so you want to make sure that I’m most I would want to say always, but there’s always exceptions.

You want to deliver on whatever you’re saying your cliffhanger is because if you’re not delivering on those promises, and it’s a letdown too many times, then obvious is gonna start having a problem with that, you know, and you kind of feel cheated, like, Oh, they just threw that in there so that I would keep reading you know, and it feels more shallow. I’m not gonna save that’s always wrong to do because in certain genres, I feel like it can be effective.

Like I think we’ve all seen. Well, I think I’ve seen scary jumpy movies. You know, where maybe there’s like a babysitter walking down a dark Hall and there’s like creepy music, we’re waiting for something to pop out, you know.

And then, um, maybe like, we cut away or something, and we come back and like the phone rings, and we’re like, oh, you know, that’s it. And like, but sometimes it works in situations like that, because it sets the tone and a place with the audience expects, they don’t know, when it’s gonna be something terrible when it’s not, you know.

And so you can kind of do some of that, that’s where I would say you’re kind of breaking the rule intentionally to kind of play around with the audience and what they expect. But even a lot of times in a situation with that, you know, say, okay, so I’ll go back to their example, we see, you know, the protagonist goes and sees his loved ones covered in blood cuts away comes back, oh, let’s actually catch up, let’s kind of a letdown. But what happens is, the audience kind of relaxes right then.

So what would be good is then you can then bring in something, you know, really scary, oh, then a monster came out and, you know, attack her. Because we’re not the audience isn’t expecting because they’re like, Oh, it was just catch up. And then bam, you know, and then they’re like, Oh, so you can play around with them in different ways to kind of break different roles and create those effects.

But generally speaking, I think I’m paying attention to those turning points do you have in your scenes, or where whatever level you’re working at, and cutting around those is probably the safest best way to go?

 Emma Dhesi  26:29

Oh, love it. No, it’s not going to change tack slightly. Oh, and just to say, I will, I’ll link to that blog post directly so that people could go and kind of digest it, as well, because there’s a lot in there.

But I am going to change tack a little bit. And I’d love to just kind of learn a little bit more about you know, you, you what you do and your editing work. And one of the questions I get asked a lot is, okay, what are the types of editing? First of all, because there’s, we know that there’s quite a few different types.

I wonder if you could just walk us through? I think it’s three or four different types, and then the ones that you focus on?

 September C. Fawkes  27:08

Yeah, okay. So yeah, there are different types of editing, I will say, just as a kind of heads up is, I have found certain people sometimes define them slightly differently from each other.

And I feel like there’s a lot of things in the writing industry like that, like, like, no, this is called the inciting incident notice, you know, so I’ll go through, you know, the way I understand it, but it’s worth keeping in mind when you’re looking around that somebody might have a slightly different definition. And that doesn’t mean they’re wrong or terrible.

But anyway, so um, there’s constant editing, as sometimes called developmental editing. And that’s going to be more like the big picture stuff. So like character, you know, character arcs, plot, theme, maybe world building, all those big picture things about like, what the story actually is, that’s how I think of it like, What the What is the story at what is the actually, you know, what is it?

What’s happening in it? What’s the content of it? How does it play out, like big picture things, and then below that, you’re gonna have a line editing, and align editing is, I think a bit more of the way the story is being told.

So like, maybe, you know, sometimes they’ll be like, okay, I feel like this chapter needs more voice in it, or this pacing is too fast, or, you know, these descriptions are long or boring, or I’m trying to think of, you need a cliffhanger, maybe, you know, so it’s gonna be more about like, how the author’s telling the story, and, you know, help them with ideas of how they can tell it better.

With books, we’re going to be talking, you know, we’re going to be dealing with the way it’s actually written on the page to, you know, maybe you have too much passive voice or whatever. And so looking at the actual writing and how to make that better. Um, after that you have copy editing. So this is going to be this is often what people think of when they think of editing.

This is where you’re going to look for things like typos and punctuation and grammatical errors, and things like that, and tighten that stuff up. Maybe sometimes wordiness, sometimes put wordiness more with line editing.

But anyway, and then after that, you also have, I guess you have proofreading. Sometimes I see people kind of put those together, but they’re slightly different. So proof editing usually happens after copy editing.

And it’s kind of the last thing where we just, you just go through the whole manuscript, make sure, you know, look, dry, check for typos, again, all those types of little things before it’s ready to be published or printed or whatever. So those are the four different types that I would break down.

 Emma Dhesi  29:49

Mm hmm. And do you do? Do you do all four of those or do you focus on one more than another?

 September C. Fawkes  29:56

Yeah, so I mostly do content and line editing. I can do um, I mean, I can’t do the other two, but I can’t do i do do copy editing sometimes? Not as much. I just, there’s just a lot of little little things to look at with that, which is fine.

But I’m more interested in, you know, let’s get down. What is the story? How do we make the story itself better? And how do we tell the story better and more effectively, that’s really where I like to focus on the most.

So that’s really what most of my work ends up being. I occasionally do copy editing, I only take on so much at a time of copy editing, just because it’s really I find it hard to be focused on all the commas and all the, you know, periods in the right spot for so like that hyper focus for so long, because I’m trying to catch everything.

The other stuff is demanding in its own way. But it’s kind of more, it’s more interesting to me.

And I don’t have to be like, I guess so perfect. watching all the little comments and thoughts and everything. I like talking about the story, I like helping writers see how they can tell the story more effectively, what works, what doesn’t. And I like teaching those concepts to when I work with them.

Emma Dhesi  31:10

Yeah, that’s one thing I have learned about working with an editor, which I didn’t expect at all, was how much of a craft lesson it is. So every time I send my book for an edit, it comes back with the teaching that you just mentioned.

And I learned so much that I’m then able to carry on into my next manuscript. And then that gets edited. And I learned more, and I hadn’t, hadn’t kind of seen it from that point of view until it happened.

And it’s, it’s invaluable is absolutely invaluable. Because so you know, if someone is listening out there is going to go with a traditional deal. If they managed to get one, that’s great, you know, the, the publisher is going to deal with all of those different layers of, of editing, for those that ended up or choose to go down the self publishing route. What from your point of view?

Do you think? Because editing is an investment? Undoubtedly, especially when you’re just starting out? From your point of view? What do you think is the most important edit that an indie author should prioritize?

Would it be the developmental would it be the copy editing lancing? What What do you feel is the most important?

 September C. Fawkes  32:20

Oh, well, I feel, um, I kind of depends where the writers act, you know, and their skills. I, to me, I think content and line editing contents, obviously, really important, because if the story isn’t effective, then it doesn’t matter how it’s written. But on the other hand, if it’s not written very well, that nobody’s gonna care about the story.

So it’s kind of, to me, it’s kind of a balancing act between those two things. Um, if you were on, I mean, say, because it can be an investment, if you were on a tight budget, I would say, you probably want to get content and development, edit editing, and that, usually, when I do that, it’s cheaper than online editing, right? Because or copy editing, because in those I’m going through each one and checking each thing, whereas concept developmental, I’m looking at the big picture.

So I can look at the big picture and tell you, you know, these are the things you need to fix in the story. If somebody is, you know, tight, financially, I guess, or they want to just get the most out of their money or decide prioritize, well, I might would do sometimes they’ll be like, Hey, I’m gonna give you a content edit. And then for a line issues, as opposed to going through each line, I will add some sections in my critique letter about overall issues related to lines that you can then apply through. So that I don’t have to comb through everything.

Another option I would maybe say is, you know, I’ll do a content developmental edit, and then maybe we can do a section of line editing, so that you can see what needs to be improved. And you can apply that through the rest. Okay, um, ideally, you know, I would say, get both content and light editing and copy editing. And, you know, but that can’t I understand that that can be quite an investment.

But I do think content in line I think, is pretty important. Most people I work with don’t have terrible grammar and punctuation. And I think, I mean, I’m not but you guys, but like, if I see a comment on the wrong spot, it’s not going to ruin the story for me, you know?

And so ideally, I would say get all of them. But if you have to prioritize, I think content and line editing is probably the place to go in my opinion.

 Emma Dhesi  34:35

That’s good advice for everyone. And no, just in terms of you and what you work with, what you what you enjoy working with. Are there any particular stories and or genres that you like working with? Or are you happy to kind of try everything and anything?

 September C. Fawkes  34:52

Yeah, so most of my experiences with fantasy and science fiction and even thinking about that the other day even more Fantasyland stuff. fiction, but that’s the those are the genres that I really love to work with.

I’ve done adult, why middle grade for any of those I have worked outside of those genres. I’ve done just general fiction, and I’ve done memoirs, and a few other things. But mostly, that’s where most of my work is, is science fiction and fantasy.

That’s kind of where I guess my expertise is, that’s where I’ve done a lot of that type of stuff. And I’m really okay with working for any kind of age, you know, middle middle group, I mean, I don’t do picture books, early young readers, so I wouldn’t be able to help people with that.

But middle grade young adult, and adult I have all worked in. And I’m really people of all levels. I’ve worked with people who have had bestsellers, and I’ve worked with people who are, you know, brand new, or people who are just getting into writing that they just want some help with?

So all different levels I’ve helped with? So in that regard, I’m usually pretty open. Yeah.

 Emma Dhesi  36:00

Um, do you have any advice for particularly new writers? So say they’ve written their first manuscript, and they’ve done all their revisions. But is there anything kind of that they can do in terms of of editing, or revision, that you from experience, you’ve seen sort of common mistakes that people make or common areas for improvement?

Shall we say that we can work on ourselves before hiring an editor so that when we do make that investment, we’re, we’re getting the best, the best that we can out of that editor?

 September C. Fawkes  36:30

Yeah, so one of the common problems I see that I feel like actually doesn’t get talked about very much, very much, excuse me, which is why I’m gonna bring it up.

And it’s a best way I explain it is, a lot of writers tend to want to look backward and their story, meaning they want to look at what happened to the character previously, what happened before the story started, they want to look at the backstory, how we got to this point, and those things all have a place.

But a lot of times writers and I think part of this is from like, maybe the writer hasn’t yet completely figured out what the story was when they started writing it. And so it’s helpful for the writer to look at, okay, where was this character before?

How did we get here, or what happened before, this isn’t going to be so interesting. And what happens is like, when I sit down the manuscript, like, I feel like we’re kind of living in the past a little bit, sometimes writers will start like in the present, and then they’ll go into the past for a while, which isn’t always wrong.

But it starts to kind of feel like the writers focusing more on the past. And I think of it as like, they’re looking backward to how what happened before the story started, or what happened previously, the audience actually wants to look forward, present or forward, right? We don’t usually want the story to mostly be in the present, you can always break rules.

And then they want to anticipate what’s going to happen, because that’s what’s gonna make them want to keep reading, they want to see Oh, what’s the outcome? What’s this going to be? What’s this going to be? And so um, my friends has a lot of new writers, they tend to look at, well, how did we get here? How did this character become this way?

The audience likes more of this is where we are now, here’s some things that here are some stakes on the line and what could possibly happen. And the thing is about the future is the, you know, we don’t know what could happen hasn’t happened yet.

And so it’s more interesting, and it draws the audience in, because it’s like, Okay, I’m trying to think of an example, if she gets invited to this party, you know, she can meet this guy she has a crush on, or if she doesn’t, then it’s going to create another issue. I’m just throwing an example.

And so when you have something that has like, okay, yep, this one element that has two different outcomes for the future, we’re certainly more interested in seeing what happens in the present, because we want to see what ends up happening and so it gets the audience to anticipate the rest of the story. So they’ll want to keep rooting and they’ll want to know what happens.

And once they start caring about that more, they’re going to be a little more interested in what happened before, if that makes sense. Okay, so yeah, that’s one of the things that I would say probably easier said than done but

Emma Dhesi  39:11

front loading, you know, sometimes I’ve heard that phrase use that, like in the beginning of a story. The waiter piles, everything, the whole history of the character, and everything that led them up to this point, and then move on. Is that was that what you’re talking about? Or is it something different?

 September C. Fawkes  39:27

Well, sorry, repeat clarify what you mean.

 Emma Dhesi  39:30

So I’ve heard this term front loading when you Front Load the story with everything that’s happened to the character up until the point that we start the actual book, or you know, and so we get their characters whole back history, their family, their schooling, everything.

And in that first chapter or two, before we start the story, is that the same thing that you’re you’re talking about now, or is it two different things?

 September C. Fawkes  39:57

Yeah, well, kind of depends how how it’s done. Um, I guess ideas, you don’t want to spend too much time just talking about like the past and the backwards, you want to be anticipating what could happen when you’re writing it, it’s okay if you as a writer know that. But if you’re putting in like a huge encyclopedia entry about, you know, this character, how they were born, and then grew up and all this stuff before the story actually starts, it’s usually very hard to pull that off and be interesting. It’s not impossible.

So you know, cuz I know people are gonna be like, Well, someone, so did this, and it worked. Like, yeah, it works. But a lot of times, it’s difficult to pull that off. It’s more interesting. Usually, if you start in the present.

And then when, like, if you’ve heard the term stakes, I think of stakes as like, potential outcomes, you know, if this happens, then this happens. So if you can put something like that in it, that’s a little more interesting.

And then you can kind of weave in some of the background stuff as you move forward in the story. That kind of make sense. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t say it’s always wrong to start the other way. But it’s very difficult to pull off, especially if you’re a newer writer. And it’s usually more interesting if you get the other way.

 Emma Dhesi  41:14

Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, you’ve given us so much today. And I stole the stuff about cliffhangers. And then you know, about the, the sort of those common mistakes that you’ve seen those problem areas, you’ve given us a lot of to think about and a lot to kind of work on for our own manuscripts.

And thank you very much. If any of our listeners are kind of interested in finding out a bit more about how they can work with you, what’s the best way of doing that?

 September C. Fawkes  41:43

Yeah, so um, you can find me if you’re interested in editing services, you can go to Fawkesediting.com, it’s kind of just where I have all my editing services, info, my blog articles and everything is just septembercfawkes.com But if you can’t remember, like, if you can’t remember my name, for some reason, you can also get to it by going to writebetterwithaneditor.com, and that’s gonna pull up all my blog articles or some other references and things you can look at on there.

Other than that, I’m on most social media platforms, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr. I don’t know that all of them. But anyway, so you can also find me there.

 Emma Dhesi  42:21

But yeah, in September, it’s been so lovely speaking to you and finding out, you know all about what you do. Thank you very much for your time.

 September C. Fawkes  42:30

Thank you for having me.

 Emma Dhesi  42:34

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational. Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, turning readers into writers. It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel.

If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called three secret hacks to write with consistency. So go to emmadhesi.com/turning eaters into writers. Hit join.

Can’t wait to see you in there.

All right. Thank you.

Bye bye.

If this interview with September C. Fawkes was useful, you’ll love:

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Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.