Write your book proposal with Vanessa Soto

Write your book proposal with Vanessa Soto

by

Write your book proposal with Vanessa Soto

by Emma Dhesi | Turning Readers Into Writers

Interview with Vanessa Soto

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome. And here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focus on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com, where you’ll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started.

Before we dive in, this week’s episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write. In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life. I know you might be thinking that you don’t have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn’t think you had.

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Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Vanessa Soto is a book proposal coach who works with first time authors with a big idea for a nonfiction book.

She helps women generally but all are welcome with a POV to get their book idea out of their head and into a standout book proposal that they will feel confident pitching to literary agents and editors.

She’s the founder of Vanessa Soto book coach, and the host of she has a book in her podcast, which launched earlier this year.

So let’s find out a little bit more about Vanessa and how she helps those first time writers get their book proposal written.

Well, welcome, Vanessa, thank you so much for being with me today.

 Vanessa Soto  02:33

Thank you so much for having me.

 Emma Dhesi  02:36

So I wanted to ask you, I know, you know, what attracted you to publishing in the first place, and what sort of led you to being the coach that you are now?

 Vanessa Soto  02:46

Well, I actually have a background in marketing. And that has been something I’ve done for many, many years. But before that, in my formative years, as a young person, as a teenager, I was always that person who was the editor of the newspaper, I always wanted to be, well, I wanted to be a magazine editor is what I intend to do. And then somewhere along the way, I found myself in advertising marketing.

And then later in life, I was trying to figure out what do I really want to do. And that and then I kind of reconnected to publishing, and found the world of book coaching, specifically non-fiction book coaching. Because while I personally love to read fiction, what I identified that I like to work with other people on actually kind of pulls on both my editing and publishing interest, as well as that marketing background that I have.

And that is putting together book proposals. Because a book proposal, like a nonfiction book proposal, is really, it’s a packaging exercise, it’s putting together your book idea, it’s packaging, it takes a lot of marketing skill. So um, so that’s kind of how it kind of, actually, while it’s publishing, it’s, it’s secretly a little bit of marketing to.

 Emma Dhesi  04:18

I like that though, isn’t I like, it’s one of the things I like about publishing and writing generally, is, we can come to it slightly later in life, and we can bring all the skills that we’ve had before. And it’s nice when they all kind of dovetail together when we find that passion and that niche that just fits everything else that we’ve been doing. And we can step into it with a lot of love. I really like that.

 Vanessa Soto  04:41

I think so. Yeah. And I appreciate that also, and I think one of the other little pieces that I use a lot in my book coaching is another kind of secret skill is project management because putting together a book proposal, I work with clients for usually about six months.

It’s a complex project, there’s a lot of moving parts. And then all the years of working in marketing and advertising, those are complex projects with lots of moving parts. So it’s, it’s that layer kind of fits under there too.

So it is what you’re talking about is using all those different skills from the different times of my life. And that feels good feels like, you know, fat kind of satisfying and fulfilling to use them all.

 Emma Dhesi  05:23

Yeah. So you mentioned that you work with nonfiction writers. And I’d love it if you could share with us some of the more interesting kind of storybook ideas or proposals that you’ve worked on it, you know, subject-wise or even personality-wise, I guess.

 Vanessa Soto  05:39

Sure, sure. Absolutely. Well, I’m working with a wonderful client right now on a cookbook. And, you know, so when you think about nonfiction, you might think about anything from academia to memoir, which kind of crosses genres to cookbook, which do fit in there, there’s their self help. I do tend to work with a lot of self help authors, personal development, that kind of space. But yeah, I’m working with a wonderful cookbook author right now.

And what I love about that is, it draws on kind of family stories, as well as like, her passions around food, she happens to come from a background, she grew up in India, and then traveled a lot, then landed in Canada, and then developed a passion around like, you know, nutritious foods and feeding her family in a healthy way.

And then fell upon the the the realization that all of the foods that she grew up eating in India, were exactly the most nutritious healthy food, she wanted to feed her family. So she so you know, that’s, that’s just like a wonderful story to share. And I learned about it while I’m helping develop the book proposal. So, you know, I’m stocking my own pantry now with more tumeric and more lentils.

And I’m like, making sure that I’m doubling up my vegetable batches and things I’m learning from my clients. So that’s, that’s one that’s top of mine, just because I’m working on it with her right now. Yeah, so you know, you learn things. And then, of course, I have worked with a couple of memoir, writers. And those are just so interesting.

Because, again, it’s the stories, right, it’s people’s lives and it’s the through lines and what what you do with memoir, when you’re putting together a book proposal is I don’t work with them on the memoir itself, necessarily, they, they you, I usually will refer them to someone else if they need help with the writing of the of the book, but, um, but with identifying who would want to read that memoir, and it’s not usually everyone, but finding who what, what are the through lines between that story and who else would want to read it? and, and that’s just like, really interesting to me, because, because other people’s stories, they’re interesting to other people for different reasons.

Like, you know, sometimes you don’t want to read stories that are just like your sometimes you do, but oftentimes, you want to read stories that are very different from yours, but have maybe some little nugget of interest. So I enjoy the memoir quite a bit, yeah.

 Emma Dhesi  08:39

Yes, I like memoir as well. It’s emmm and even when yeah, quite often I go to it, if I’m looking to get a different perspective on something I’m experiencing, just to help me with what I’m doing at that moment in time. When Yeah, other people’s lives, too, are fascinating, and what people go through…

 Vanessa Soto  08:57

Where they land, where they started, where they go.

 Emma Dhesi  09:00

Yes, yes. I love it! Um, okay, get carried away with that. But let’s…

 Vanessa Soto  09:06

We really could, yeah…

 Emma Dhesi  09:09

Let’s come back to you and, and your clients. So how can your clients decide? And more anybody listening? In fact, they decide if they should self-publish a nonfiction book, or whether they should pursue a traditional deal?

 Vanessa Soto  09:25

Yeah, I mean, that’s pretty big question. So there’s a lot of different things to consider. But at the highest level, the types of things that I talk about with folks, when they’re trying to make that decision, are who do they want to reach with their book?

And what are their goals for their book? So those are kind of like the two key questions that we dig into. So at the broadest level, if you want to reach a really broad audience, You probably will have a better opportunity in traditional publishing, if you have very niche audience.

And again, there’s a broad broad strokes, you might have a better opportunity with with a niche audience better opportunity with self publishing and then if you want to make and then in terms of your own personal goals for your project, if you want to hit bestseller list, like if you’re thinking to yourself like that is my primary goal is I want to be on bestseller list, I want to be on the Today Show, if those are your types of goals, and I’m not, you know, laughing because those are funny goals or bad goals.

But if, if those are your, your types of goals, then you need to be thinking about traditional publishing, that doesn’t mean that you’re going to get a book deal. But those are the types of things that you need to be thinking about, because self publishing is not going to land you in those types of opportunities.

If your goals are more like I want to grow my business, I want to have a book that I can give out when I do speaking opportunities, I want to have a stack of books that I can hand out, or I want to book I can mail to my clients when you start working with them, then you can self publish, those are just like very broad strokes of how you could make the decision and then there’s so many other decisions in there things like, yeah…

 

Emma Dhesi  11:27

Gosh, she’s gonna pick up on the, when you were saying about if you have a niche, a particular niche you’re interested in appealing to? Why is self publishing better for more niche markets?

 Vanessa Soto  11:40

Well, it depends on how niche we’re talking. So if it’s niche, niche niche, like, there’s only 100 people out there who will ever buy your book, then really, really self publishing is right for you. Right? If it’s if it’s, if it’s niche, like, it’s women entrepreneurs, if we’re thinking, then that’s not that small, but niche, and right, and you could absolutely, you know, to consider traditionally publishing, that’s why it’s a pretty challenging question to answer and there’s so many different ways, I’m actually working on launching a new episode, my podcast, just this, I think it’s gonna launch next week on this topic.

So we can dig in, and people can dig into a little bit more on if they want to, but it’s a hard one, because there’s some other things in there around things like platform.

So traditional publishing, it’s getting more more competitive to get a book deal. traditional publishers want to see you having a big platform, they like it, they like you to have a large following on social media.

That said, many agents will say that if they love your idea, they will hang out while you build your platform, you know, if they see something there, or they if they see that, uh, you know, the client that I mentioned with the cookbook, she has a, she appears on national television in Canada, quite a bit. Um, she has a quite a solid platform as well.

They’re not massive. But I think there’s like these different ways into platform. It’s some other you might hear some people say like, you have to have 100,000 followers. It’s not, it’s not as straightforward as that. It’s more nuanced but platform does continue to be quite quite important as well yeah. Yeah, unfortunately.

 Emma Dhesi  13:49

But it’s nice to know that it is more nuanced that it’s not just about having a certain number of Twitter followers, your Instagram followers that there is room, and I didn’t realize as well that agents or publishers are quite if they really like the idea that they will have some wiggle room and they’ll be agent…

 Vanessa Soto  14:05

Totally varies. Yeah, I talked to a couple of agents recently for my podcast, and we talk about all different topics and again, every agent is different, right? They’re all their their individual humans and their and their agencies have different perspectives.

They all work with different different publishing houses and if they fall in love with an idea, and they can sell it, they and they see promise, and there is a platform that is started. We’re not talking about somebody who has starting from nothing, right? There’s possibility.

And I always talk to my clients. I just had just signed a client very recently.

And I speak very frankly with my clients and say, Are you committed to building your platform and growing it alongside working on this proposal? While I don’t personally handhold them through, like the strategy of developing, like a marketing plan for for building their platform.

But it’s very important that they understand the importance of that, like that’s. So I just kind of want to say that for folks who are listening, who are DIY, their, their book proposal, they should at the same time be working on their, their platform at the same time.

 Emma Dhesi  15:26

Yeah, good advice there. So, um, somebody decides, okay, I’m going to self publish, or or they’ve made the decision, they know which way they’re going to go. What are the three questions that they need to ask themselves? Before they, before they even write the book proposal itself?

 Vanessa Soto  15:44

Before they even get started?

 Emma Dhesi  15:45

Yeah.

 Vanessa Soto  15:46

Yeah. So the things I always encourage people to think about as early as possible to really know the answer to our who, who’s their reader, like, really, really know your reader.

And I think whether you’re writing fiction, nonfiction, whatever you’re writing, like, really, you need to know your reader. And I do all kinds of exercises with my clients, I’ll do like, if I do a workshop or something, we might dig into this, but it’s like, really understand your reader, like, what are they doing all day long? You know, maybe give her a name.

You know, what, just understand her What is she? What is she thinking about? How is she feeling? What is she? What does she need, so really, really understand your reader. And then the next thing is really understand, like what you yourself, want to get out of this book. And that is very much in keeping with what we were talking about with how to decide which route of publishing to go down.

Because you need to understand what kind of impact you’re intending to make with this book in order to, like, make it happen, right? So you need to be really clear about that. So you need to know what you want to make happen with your book.

And then you need to understand the competitive landscape surrounding your book and, you know, I think more that’s becoming more and more important is understanding what else is going on in in the marketplace.

When the pandemic’s over, you know, head of the bookstore, know what’s on the bookshelf, know who else is selling similar books, and a lot of people think that the book that’s going to sell, is going to be the book that is brand new that no one’s ever written before.

But the reality is that what publishers are looking for, is a book that has sold before, they do not want a brand new idea that has never been heard of before. They are looking for your fresh take on an idea that, in fact, has been successful before. So, so understand what’s going on in the world have be educated about what’s out there.

Write your book proposal with Vanessa Soto

Emma Dhesi  18:13

That’s such good advice. I think it works in the fiction world as well. I think that, you know, you might hear somebody say, I’ve got this brand new story note, nothing like this has ever been written before and that can be all very well.

And perhaps it’s true, but the message then comes back. Well, what do we do with it? Where does it sit on the shell?

 Vanessa Soto  18:34

Where does it… Yeah?

 Emma Dhesi  18:35

Market sets?

 Vanessa Soto  18:36

Yeah, yeah. And that can be a little discouraging to people. So I think it’s important to say it and say it again, and have it sink in? Because I think if it doesn’t mean that your book that’s never been heard of before is a bad idea.

It’s how do you reframe that book as? Oh, well, actually, it’s kind of similar to this, but in this different way and, and, and that is what’s new about it?

 Emma Dhesi  19:05

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like that. Yes. So okay, so now they’ve answered these questions. They have a good idea of what they want for their book where it might sit in the world.

And they feel they’re confident and they want to go ahead. What are the different stages of developing a book proposal? What do readers listeners need to think about if they want to put one together, either with vinyl sales or with a coach like yourself?

 Vanessa Soto  19:35

Let me think about that. Let’s see the stages would be I think the first stage is kind of what we’ve been talking about this establishment of really what is it’s a very basic level, like what is your idea? And Who is it for? Right so That’s basic, it’s like, you have an idea. Who is it for? And what kind of impact do you want to make with it? Is it really a book is also kind of in there.

So it’s this formulation idea, in terms of how I work with folks, that shapes out into a whole, like 50 page workbook that I call the blueprint and it’s actually yeah, it’s actually something that I have my clients work through over a number of months before we even start working together and then they it’s like, the first deadline is they bring this workbook to me and we like hash it out and go through everything and it’s that first step, like this is my book idea.

This is what I think it is and I take it’s kind of like a first stab at, like, every piece of a book proposal also. So it’s really organizing everything you think your book proposal is how I think about it and then you take it apart.

So when I think about the phases of a book proposal, it’s it’s not like, first draft and then polish it, it’s like, what do you think your idea is, and then get some help from someone you really trust?

Who will tell you the truth, and make sure that everything that you’re saying really makes sense to somebody else, and like, take it apart, and then put it back together again, because when I see first draft proposals, because a lot of people will bring me their first draft, and they’ll say, I think it just needs to be polished, like I just need to edit it.

And it’s I, I, I feel like I’m breaking hearts every time. But every time it needs to be started over. And there’s always wonderful nuggets, and the idea is in there and everything.

But um, usually people’s book ideas are so in their own heads. And when you’re taking an idea to a book agent who’s never seen it before, and who has to sell it and it usually needs to be like completely repackaged.

So I think the biggest thing for people to think about when they are writing a book proposal is to remember that you’re writing something that is a lot closer to a business plan, then you’re sweet idea that you love, and it’s so close to your heart.

And that’s like really hard for people. But that’s really what it is, is you’re writing a business plan for your book, it’s a packaging exercise. And it needs to have excellent writing, and it needs to sell your book and it needs to sell you and it needs to perfectly position your book in the marketplace.

And all those things are not things that writers think about and then and because they’re not like why would you think about those things and nonfiction writers sometimes think about those things more depending on what their background is, like, let’s say you have a, you know, nonfiction, writers background might be in business, right? So they might come more naturally that.

But I worked with a client recently who is a entrepreneur, she’s a coach, like a life coach. And she actually, you know, does quite a bit of business oriented work.

But she said to me, the section where we did the market analysis, where you have to position, you know, who are the people who will buy this book, she wrote something like, I don’t even know how I would have written that, without your help, because it would never have occurred to her to approach it in the way that we did.

Which was to think about what are the things that are going on in the world right now that make your book? Um, you know, kind of relevant and, and, and right, so it’s just stuff like that. It’s just, it’s just it’s how would you know, right? You’re not like writing a book proposal every day.

 

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Emma Dhesi  24:33

So yeah, so I was curious about that, you know, what are some of the things like you give us good example there about market analysis? Your client was like, Oh, I didn’t know I would need that.

What are some of the other things that have taken some of your clients by surprise when they realized they couldn’t put this in a book proposal?

 Vanessa Soto  24:52

The the marketing plan section is a doozy. So I think it’s I think someone thinks so the sections below proposal that are pretty straightforward. The overview section is like the first part, and sort of the overview for what your book is.

That’s generally pretty well understood. The bio pretty well understood. I’m, I’m thinking about some of the other the market analysis, we talked about that that can be a little tricky. The annotated table of contents, the annotated table of contents, so you can approach this one different ways. So it is a table of contents, which is the flow of your book, right? Like, what is going to be the flow of your book.

But really, what what agents are looking for, and publishers ultimately is like, what is the story arc of your book, so they don’t want to know every detail every chapter, but they want to know, they want to see a shape, they want to see a shape of your book.

So it’s not like the shape. It’s not, you’re not writing, like every single thing that you’re going to put in that chapter, you’re, again, you’re thinking through the eyes of the, through the eyes of the agent who’s reading it, what do they need to know to see the story, and that’s hard, right?

So it’s, it’s thinking through the eyes of the person who’s reading it. So that can that can, you know, be a little challenging them, but I guess if the marketing plan is a tricky one, because like, like the market analysis, it’s not something that most writers or most non marketers are doing every day and the marketing plan is a make it or break it, because, like, we talked about what platform, if you have a ginormous platform of 100,000, Instagram followers, blah, blah, blah, okay, fine, you know, you’re probably going to be getting a book deal and they will give you a marketing team, and they will put everything together for you.

But if you have a middling platform, you are really going to need to put together a plan that’s going to sell your concept and your marketing plan needs to be something that you yourself can execute, like, they’re not going to do it even for you. So a you need to show them that you can, you need to develop a marketing plan, and then you need to be able to execute it.

So you need to show them something that you can actually bring to life. And it’s multi pronged. Like you need to show them how you will use your own platform, how you’ll grow your platform in advance of the book, launch, how y’all also do a lot of outreach, like something like getting on multiple podcasts getting on television, if that’s appropriate, or do like a blog tour, things like that.

So there’s just a lot a lot of pieces that people wouldn’t think of me in a marketing plan.

That’s like a whole expertise that people don’t have. So I think that one, you know, can it can throw people how, how detailed it’s expected to be. So, I tend to go about as many as 10 or 12 rounds of edits on each of these sections with my clients…

 Emma Dhesi  28:20

Which is the sections…

 Vanessa Soto  28:21

Each section, maybe not, I mean, manuscript edits, maybe two, two rounds, but all the other ones, we go a lot of rounds. Um, it’s hard!

 Emma Dhesi  28:34

In your new experience, what are the hallmarks of a good book proposal? stand out to me, it’s very agent, and I’m guessing then this marketing plan is one of them.

 Vanessa Soto  28:44

Yeah, they love the marketing, they want to see a robust marketing plan that’s also really authentic, like something that’s, that can actually be accomplished, they don’t want to see a marketing plan that looks amazing, but isn’t, like real, like you can’t actually do it.

So they want to see something that is real, they want to see real connections like real people that you know, that you can actually reach out to and make things happen with. So that would be that would probably fit in there.

So real robust marketing plan. Top of the list with your book proposal, hallmark, you know, hallmarks would just be like, polished, excellently written free of typos. I know that sounds basic, but like, get it proof read.

Make sure that your concept is clear, right. Like you are clear on what your book idea is, you’re saying over and over again, you’re iterating it, you’re not kind of like saying it one way and then like later on kind of saying it a little bit of a different way, which is something that I see a lot of times in first drafts, kind of like, first

I kind of say like this, and I can still be really clear, be really clear, as you’re going as you’re that people will be, agents are looking for clarity, they’re looking for something they can sell, they’re looking for something that’s marketable, they’re looking for something with a market, they learn, they’re looking for you understanding your market, they’re looking for you to have a platform, they’re looking for you to have a vision, you know, for you to, they’re looking for you to be somebody who has a point of view, you have something you really want to say and, and that you’ve been saying it for a while, probably hopefully, for five or 10 years.

I think those are probably some of the key things, some confidence, right, some confidence in your voice, some authority, even if you’re, I’m not gonna say fake it till you make it.

But um, but a little bit of, you know, you might be feeling a little wobbly on this, because it’s scary to put yourself out there. But if you’re putting yourself out there, you know, you’re, you’re putting yourself out there, right. And over time, you’re going to get more comfortable with it so…

 Emma Dhesi  31:07

So they had this to it. And I was just thinking about the confidence and you know, being bold in your statements and having your voice is I, I think that I feel like we live in a kind of society now where it’s very difficult to be bold, and to one way or the other, that it’s especially online, you can get vilified for almost anything these days.

Is that are you noticing that in the, in the book proposals you work on people are more reticent these days to really put themselves out on a limb? Or? Or is it just me?

 Vanessa Soto  31:44

I don’t know. I mean, I feel like it I feel like, what I’m actually seeing is a lot of people feeling like, you know what, I have been thinking about this book for a while.

And it’s time that I just go ahead and do it. And I’m kind of giving up on feeling like, I’m not enough of an expert and I’m just gonna go ahead and try. And I so I’m actually seeing a little bit more of that. I think since the pandemic, people are feeling like, I’m going to stop waiting.

And I’m just going to go ahead. Right, and, and so I’ve seen more of that. And I think that’s I think that’s really so so then instead sometimes I’ll say, Well, okay, let’s work on your platform and make sure that you’re also at the same time, you know, developing your audience and that kind of thing, because you don’t want to rush but amm…

 Emma Dhesi  32:33

They talking about.. I was surprised. Yeah. And there that you. You know, you mentioned six months there that a book proposal can take six months to do is that average? Or is that…

If you’ve been working on your novel for years (perhaps even decades) the maybe it's time to consider working with a coach.

If you have multiple versions of your novel and you don’t know which works best, are scared nobody will like your book and don't feel like a 'real' writer, then my guess is coaching is the right next step for you.

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Vanessa Soto  32:43

You know, I used to tell clients that it would take four to six months. And that’s just because I work at a certain pace with folks where we work on a two week deadline cadence.

So every two weeks, they submit their pages to me and that’s just kind of the the cadence that I work on, I find that it gives people time for their ideas to formulate, I’ve tried shorter timeframes, and what I find is it feels rushed.

And it feels like we’re just trying to like squeeze things out. And the stretching things out actually gives ideas room to breathe in form.

That’s what I’ve found. So I’m sticking with that. Even though most everybody wants to do it faster, and they think they can do it faster.

 Emma Dhesi  33:36

Okay, so that’s good advice there.

I like that you emphasize the point that our ideas need to room to breathe, especially if you’re kind of guiding people on new things they haven’t thought about, or they haven’t given enough clarity to, and having that space will make it feel less pressure they imagine.

 Vanessa Soto  33:54

Well, and I will add that some people have completed it faster for sure. And I take them all the way through querying their proposal. So that includes developing developing their query letters and pitching agents.

So it’s a and that blueprint process that I described, so it’s quite a bit.

 Emma Dhesi  34:15

Now you offer free consultation to people who are thinking about publishing their book, and what sort of things do you cover in that call?

 Vanessa Soto  34:24

Anything that we just talked about today, Really, it tends to be in the area of Should I self published or traditionally published?

That seems that’s that tends to be one of the big topics. Also, I have a first draft does it make you know, does it make sense for us to work together kind of thing sometimes we’ll we’ll we’ll talk about that.

But really, I keep them very open. I am happy to use the time to even just answer questions so on my calendar, I do just offer them and one window of time on Saturday mornings specific time. If that time doesn’t work for them, they can send me a note. And we can try and find another time but but really we can use it however works for them. I’m happy to, to have conversations with folks.

 Emma Dhesi  35:10

Fantastic. Now, one of the other things that you do, which you’ve recently started is your podcast.

 Vanessa Soto  35:17

Yes!

 Emma Dhesi  35:18

Tell us about it!

 Vanessa Soto  35:19

She has a book in her is my new podcast, and I am sharing all kinds of guidance tips and advice on all things, publishing and book proposals, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. And yeah, I would love it, if you would check it out.

It’s it’s a baby podcast just launched in the last couple of months so thanks for mentioning it, Emma. The other thing that if folks are interested in, they can sign up for my monthly newsletter, book notes, they can grab that on my website at Vanessasotobookcoach.com/booknotes, I just send out a monthly first Sunday of the month newsletter.

So if they want to keep in touch that way, they can sign up there.

 Emma Dhesi  36:15

That’s lovely. And is there do you? Are you on social media yourself? Is there any way…

 Vanessa Soto  36:20

You can find me on Instagram? That’s pretty much where I hang out at Vanessa Soto book coach.com. I’m on Facebook, but I’m not really very active there anymore.

 Emma Dhesi  36:33

Well, Vanessa, it’s been really interesting speaking to you. I’ve learned a lot today about the whole publishing world I’ve never investigated before. So thank you so much for sharing your expertise.

 Vanessa Soto  36:44

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. I very much enjoyed it. Thank you.

 Emma Dhesi  36:52

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational. Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, turning readers into writers. It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel.

If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called three secret hacks to write with consistency. So go to emmadhesi.com/turning eaters into writers. Hit join.

Can’t wait to see you in there.

All right. Thank you.

Bye bye.

 

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Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

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What it takes to finish a novel with Cat Lumb

What it takes to finish a novel with Cat Lumb

by

What it takes to finish a novel with Cat Lumb

by Emma Dhesi | Turning Readers Into Writers

Interview with Cat Lumb

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome and here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focused on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com, where you’ll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started.

Before we dive in, this week’s episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write. In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life.

Now you might be thinking that you don’t have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn’t think you had. If you thought writing always involved a pen and paper or a keyboard. Think again.

If you thought you needed at least an hour at a time to write your manuscript. I help you reframe that you won’t be disappointed. Get your free copy of 30 Top Tips to find time to write by going to emmadhesi.com/30TopTips.

Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Cat Lumb has been writing stories for over a decade since she was diagnosed with two chronic conditions and forced her to rest more meaning her imagination was her only escape.

Her first love is novels and she has eight manuscripts in various stages of completeness, but also enjoys the ease of short stories for a quick fiction fix. Her stories have been published in women’s weekly writing magazine and karma press new Manchester writers collection.

Her DB short story collection the memorial tree keybinds in the Kindle store in July 2018. Her fiction explores themes such as sentiment, perspective and reflection, often with a surprising turn. Her debut novel a spy thriller called in lies we trust, was published in March 2021.

In August 2020, she left her job as museum educator at the Manchester museum to follow her dream life as a writer, and now as the right catalyst. She is a writing coach for aspiring authors who dream of writing a novel.

She is keen to support writers develop their confidence and self belief and is an avid believer that we all have a novel inside of us waiting to be written. She’s on the steering committee of the Huddersfield literature festival, but lives over the hill on the wrong side of the Pennines in Staley bridge, where she enjoys walking with her dog, Hugo the destroyer.

So let’s get chatting to cats and find out a little bit more about her journey to writing and how she helps new writers write that book that’s deep inside of them.

Well, welcome, Cat, thank you so much for being here with me today.

 Cat Lumb  03:29

Oh, thank you very much. It’s a it’s lovely to be here.

 Emma Dhesi  03:32

Now, I wonder if we can start with you just telling us a little bit about yourself in your journey to writing and where you are now.

 Cat Lumb  03:40

Yeah, so it’s a typical story of childhood love of writing and reading. And I was always the kid that went to parties and then hit on this table with a book rather than partying.

And But it wasn’t until I was in my late 20s that I really picked up fiction writing again. And basically, it was because of ultimately I became quite ill. And I became housebound, actually with a an Lchronic illness called M.E or also known as chronic fatigue syndrome. And then later in 2011, I was also diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which is a chronic pain syndrome.

So, because of this, obviously, as I said, my energy was limited. I was often in a lot of fatigue and pain. And it meant that I couldn’t work for a few months. So I basically couldn’t do anything other than sit on the sofa, and rest and the only really company that I had to get me through was either terrible daytime TV or my imagination. Unfortunately, I have a very vivid imagination.

So I started writing again as a kind of means to help me heal, I guess. And it was journaling. I started blogging again. And I started writing short form fiction. I made an attempt at a novel which took me six years to even finish the birth one.

And I think it’s probably developed from there, all of it has come from the fact that had I not become ill with this, these two disabilities, I may never have got my dream of writing a novel and publishing it. So it’s a really interesting turn around. And last year, during the pandemic, I left my job as a medium educator.

So I was working part time teaching kids how to use collections, to you know, that history and things like that. But in the pandemic, working from home, my health just got so much better. And so what I ended up doing is making the big leap, and leaving that job, and becoming my own boss, and really committing to my writing dreams and my dream of actually helping other writers do the same thing.

So I left my job in August 2020, I finally built the dream plotting shed that I’ve been dreaming off for three years. So the shed that I’m talking to you now from is in my garden is a little shed, it’s got a blackboard wall, where I can plot out my novels. And I just absolutely love coming to work every day.

And my health is so much better, that I now I can modify care. So it was definitely the right choice.

 Emma Dhesi  06:19

Gosh, absolutely. It is amazing how life takes these meandering tones. And we don’t always know how we’re going to achieve our dream or what obstacles we’re going to come across. I’m sure you can never afford that.

You know, a chronic illness might be the catalyst, pardon the pun, to to get you to where you wanted to be, not just with your potting shed, but also to get that book out in the world.

And that’s, I love that you mentioned your potting shed, because I’ve obviously I’ve been following you for a bit so I I recognize the wallpaper and things in your shopping shed.

I didn’t realize it was going to share that you had the special, she shared plotting shed there was your creative space. So it’s lovely.

 Cat Lumb  07:04

Yeah, I mean, I sometimes joke that actually what I’ve probably built is quite a large dog house because my dog who got the destroyer, absolutely adores, sitting in the corner, looking out the window watching the squirrels in the back garden.

And he gets more excited on a Monday morning to come to the shed than I did.

 Emma Dhesi  07:25

Sounds perfect. So you mentioned there that you you started off doing short form fiction. And that’s actually a challenge that I’ve given myself this year, I’ve got the challenge of writing 52 short stories this year.

And I don’t mind telling you I’m finding it. I find it a challenge to come up with the ideas for short stories. Where do you get your ideas from work for a short form rather than the long form novels?

 Cat Lumb  07:53

Oh I have to admit that I have a very vivid imagination, as I’ve said, and I find the problem is stopping the ideas. everywhere I’ve been to look, I always ask the question, What if.

And, in fact, it’s one of my key tips for new writers, if you ever get stuck in a story, just do like a little decision tree of what if this happened, what if this happened, what if this happened, and then choose whichever one would make more sense for you.

But generally, they just pop into my mind when I’m sort of peak. I love people watching. And it’s a bit difficult within the times of pandemic, but I used to sit in a cafe and just watch people go past.

And in fact, I was out on a walk at the weekend with a couple of my friends. And there was an elderly man walking past holding a small child. And he was kind of walking really quickly and looking over his shoulder at the same time. And immediately I was thinking, Oh, what happens if that child’s not his. And that just suddenly starts me on that story.

And so I guess I have a quite a dark mind, there is a general just to my certainly short form and sometimes long form stories that I have to kill somebody. So generally speaking, in my short stories, somebody has died or somebody will die. And but that’s because one of the things that I write about are things like loss and grief, and how that impacts us on the memories of people.

So I would say that if you’re struggling to find ideas for your short stories, or if any of your listeners are I tend to go to newspapers, look at headlines and decide what the story is from the headline.

And use the water method and just continuously. One of the reasons I like the what if tree is you can plot out a story really quickly and see the options and without having to sit at your desk for hours and write the story.

So yeah, that’s that be my two best tips for you. headlines are really good ones that are kind of what’s the story here. Perfect. Have you even read the story? Especially with some of the clickbait that goes on now? So?

 Emma Dhesi  10:04

Yes, well, good tips. Thank you, I think I will be having a look at Yeah, the headline, one in particular, kind of resonates with me. So I’ll be trying that. Thank you.

And now I saw from your bio as well that not only do you have lots of good ideas, but you’ve been very successful with them, and you’ve submitted them to different publications, and had good success.

I wondered if you had a kind of methodology for that, or how you were how you decide which stories you’re going to submit to which publications and or was it just good luck?

 Cat Lumb  10:39

I think it’s a little bit of luck, I generally look for themes that I know that I write about already. So again, like memory loss, and nostalgia, we like the idea of characters that lie or that don’t tell the whole truth.

So I generally look for competitions that sit within those themes. And then what I try and do is, I do my wife tree, for a lot of them. I always like a good prompt. So if something says it’s an open start with category, you can write whatever you want, that’s when I usually get stumped, because they’ve got too many ideas.

And so I One of my favorites is for competitions is always the last line competition, love a good last line. And really good theme. So I’ve been really successful with things like having stories published in women’s weekly.

And again, that was grief and loss, with a slightly off turn, obviously, at the end, and mighty magazine competitions and things like that, where they do have the last line or the theme. So I think if if your listeners are looking for short story successes, it’s really good for them to look in places things like writing magazine competitions, of themes, theme stories that they know that they can write about.

And sometimes I know it’s quite difficult as a writer to figure out what your themes are. But if you’ve started writing stories, or you’ve got a lot of short stories, and you don’t know what to do with them, just read, have a read through them, and see if you can pull out some of those themes, what you consistently write about your characters, all women in their 40s that are struggling with relationships.

And I think by doing that, it means that you’re more targeted as to where you’re submitting your work. I tend really tend to look for anthologies and things like that. And one of my best resources happens to be the small press guide by Miss lexia Magazine.

They’ve got a little sort of guide where it basically tells you all the small presses and the apologists are looking for short stories, memoir pieces, essays and things like that. So it’s a really good resource for the writers to have.

 

Emma Dhesi  12:54

Yes, I know that one is is very good they do that. Debbie, there isn’t she does a great job. Yeah. I know, you’ve mentioned it a few times that your the themes that interest you are about loss and grief and things or would you be willing to kind of share with us why those those things interest you so much?

 Cat Lumb  13:15

You know, it took me a long time to figure out why. I mean, one of my most memorable childhood moments, is one of those that six I think was about six or seven. And actually one of my school friends died and I have a very lingering memory of my mom answering the phone at the bottom of the stairs just before school.

And she just crumpled at the bottom of the stairs into sobs. And that that was when we found out and I think that’s kind of something I carry with me. I’ve been very fortunate not to have suffered too much grief throughout my life from that, obviously, loss of grandparents, loss of dogs, which is one of the other grief that I go through.

But I just find it fascinating the way that people deal with it in different ways. And also the lingering effects that it has that you know, years later, that childhood memory is obviously leaked its way into my writing, without me even knowing that first.

So yeah, and it’s got something to do with that, that perception of things and how people perceive grief.

And what people think grief is and so often it does look like you know, hiding and crying and, you know, missing people, but it can also be being in a supermarket by yourself and not knowing which brand of washing powder to buy because you never bought it.

So it’s it’s one of those really interesting concepts to me and I think that’s what you’re kind of like to explore in my stories.

 Emma Dhesi  14:53

Yeah, and I wonder I am one of those women whose theme does tend to be women in their 40s Who are kind of, you know, looking at relationships, whether it be with a partner or a friend or or children often as well? Um, do you find that that the way that? So though the theme generally is sort of around grief and loss, have you noticed over the years that maybe the emphasis has changed? Do you find? Or are you still still exploring this one and haven’t yet evolved…

 Cat Lumb  15:25

I think the emphasis does change, because I think the stories that I write can either be quite dark, and I do quite like a twist at the end that last line of, you know, surprise, but I think it’s also come from the optimistic nostalgia of really good memories as well.

So it kind of has a different strand, for different stories and for different approaches. And obviously, with my debut novel, it was a slightly different genre than I usually writing.

But again, even the, in that nobody dies until the end, I’ll give that away. And there is still elements of grief and loss through it and how people respond to it.

So even if it’s not a central theme, it’s still somehow bubbles, its way up to sort of lesser themes and less funds.

 Emma Dhesi  16:18

I was talking to a writing teacher recently, and she says that she’s been writing the same thing, essentially, for the last 14 years. So I’m always interested to note whether I’ll be the same or whether whether I’ll change.

And now you mentioned your novel, and that you’ve moved on to longer form fiction and then just First of all, because your first your debut novel was published just in March of 2021.

So not long ago. So big congratulations on that.

 Cat Lumb  16:46

Thank you

 Emma Dhesi  16:46

that a lovely milestone. And so you’ve moved on to longer form fiction. And I was wondering what your process for writing this was, was similar to doing short stories? Do you plot it in the same way that you do your short stories? Or was this more of a discovery? exploration? Talk us through it?

 Cat Lumb  17:07

So as I said, the short stories, I generally pick a theme, and general How about one question to answer that one water. And for my long form fiction, genuinely my process is to is to do a bit of plotting.

So I have to know what the inciting incident is, what sets us off on this story. And I always like to have an ending in mind.

So that allows me to think, right, where am I heading, what has got to happen between the inciting incident and the ending that I want to make that happen?

So I generally do do a little bit of plotting. But I often find that with all the plotting in the world, somehow, I end up on a discovery journey as well. So I tend to do NaNoWriMo, National Novel Writing Month, every single year.

So in November, usually what happens is that I’ve got an idea for a novel sort of a big concept, or what if, and I just start writing. And in that month of november 50,000 words in 30 days, it doesn’t give me any chance to question whether or not it’s going to work.

It’s just, I just need to go from one scene to the next and one happening and one plot point to the next, and see what happens and explore my characters. And then from that, it gives me a good idea to whether or not the idea is a novel worthy idea, I guess.

And then I usually rewrite it. Because let’s face it, the National Novel Writing Month is great for getting the words on the page, but they’re not necessarily the right words, or the end words.

And it just gives me a really good idea of what the plot is going to be, and how my character is going to change throughout that story. So then, generally, I rewrite it.

And, you know, the novel can go through a number of rewrites. So like I said, for my first novel, which is still in a drawer somewhere, it took me six years and about eight different rewrites.

And I’ve just got to the stage now, sort of 10 years into my writing process where I don’t have to rewrite it 700 times, I can rewrite it once and then just edit it. I figured that out now.

 Emma Dhesi  19:21

It’s nice to know that that time has been well spent. So now you know, you’ve got a process that works for you.

And although it’s never easy writing, particularly a first draft, at least you you know, have some experience that tells your brain you can do this.

Don’t give up Yes, this bit in the middle might be a bit tough, but you’ve got foreign here, you know, you can do it.

And I think that’s where a lot of confidence can come from. It’s just knowing that you’ve struggled through it in the past and you did it. So now you’re again,

What it takes to finish a novel with Cat Lumb

Cat Lumb  19:54

I definitely agree with that is that the more more you practice them more you realize that the hard writing there’s a just as valuable as the writing, there’s that flow.

And I’m very much of I actually don’t believe in writer’s block. So much like the idea that you sit, you can’t sit down and write something, I actually believe that’s just a mental block.

That’s just you telling yourself that you can’t do it, when actually, you can. It might just be that you don’t know where you’re going, or you’re, you know, you’re fatigued, or your energy levels are low.

So there are a lot of different things going on there. And certainly with the people that I work with, that’s one of the obstacles that we overcome together, where we identify what is the block that’s happening here, because it’s not about you can’t get words onto a page.

Because you can put any words on a page, it’s fine. But it’s about how you approach that writing.

And I think the confidence that you come to your writing, this is so important, because that can make the difference between a good writing day and a bad writing day.

 Emma Dhesi  21:02

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Just before we move on to talk about how you work with writers, I was interested when you mentioned earlier on, so your debut is cold, and in lies we trust, and it’s a spy thriller.

But you’ve said that that’s not your usual genre. So I wondered, oh, what made you decide to write this one and then for this to be your to be your debut?

 Cat Lumb  21:28

So yes, the my usual genre, the genre I’m most comfortable at is women’s commercial fiction, that sort of reading group fiction. But the spy thriller actually came from a challenge for my writing group A number of years ago.

So I think it was in 2015, or 2016. So the National Novel Writing Month, then the I think, sometime the beginning of October, my writing group, put an exercise forward that says write something that is not your typical genre, something that you would never ordinarily write.

And I thought, right, okay, women’s group fiction, what’s furthest away from that spy thriller. So try writing a spy thriller. So I wrote this little excerpts about a woman being kidnapped, really taken to the warehouse, and she was reporting into her superior officer because she used to be a spy. But then her superior officer, and another person gets shot by a man wearing nothing but a trench coat.

And then that’s why the exit stopped. Cuz that’s, as far as I got on my writing group, like, you can’t leave it there. We want to know what happens next. Why is he only wearing a trench coat? So I thought, okay, and I had a few more ideas about what was happening.

So I sat down, and I wrote it in that November. And actually, the story that came out is pretty much the story that’s in the book now. But at no point did I plot this novel, I literally was complete discovery. So as you read it, and you’re kind of figuring out well, do we trust that person? What’s going to happen to that?

Where’s that going to go? Those are all exactly the questions that I were asking myself as I wrote it. Unfortunately, it just, it must have been something in me because it just came out.

And it was so much fun to write. And reading back over it. When I left my job last year, I was like, this is a fun adventure novel. This is something that actually people could really enjoy.

And the fact that it’s not my usual drawn genre doesn’t mean that it should sit in a drawer and never see the light of day because it kind of deserves to see that light up there and get those readers.

So it’s like, right, okay, well, it’s it’s complete, I’ve just got to do a bit of tidying up so and then I can release it. So that’s what I did. And I am absolutely delighted that in the first week of its release, it actually got to number 16, in the best sellers for spy thrillers on Amazon, which completely flummoxed me because this was, you know, the fun project or something that was a bit different.

And, and I’ve had amazing reviews, my favorite being the one person who said that they started reading it one night, couldn’t put it down and had to pull a sticky at work the next day, just so they could finish it, which is a writer, it’s like that is the perfect review.

So it was one of those ones where it was a challenge. And it was something different. And I think, as writers we shouldn’t shy away from that we, you know, if you do get a bit of writer’s block, try something completely different, you might find actually, that’s kind of one of the places where you shine. And that novel taught me so much about piercing about, you know, putting hooks in chapters and things like that.

So I’m actually really proud of it. So I’m glad that I was my debut novel in some ways, but you probably notice I published it under my real name as my dad would say, which is Katherine And that’s because I intend to publish sort of commercial women’s fiction under catalogue.

So they do have a bit of a separation. So if in future you’re looking for, you know, women’s fiction, and you come across in lies waitressed, I want you to make sure that you know, it’s not the traditional stuff. So don’t want the disappointed reading a spy thriller when it’s like, this isn’t the the nice women’s fiction.

Although Having said that, the main character, Liz is one of my favorite women, she’s strong. She’s fun. She knows what she wants. So she’s a great protagonist.

 Emma Dhesi  25:33

Yeah, I just wanted to kind of go back a little bit. And she when you mentioned that, you know, if the audience is thinking, Oh, where’s this gonna go wisest man in a trench coat.

And you were thinking that, and you were going along for the journey, I just wanted to kind of comment on how, or observe just how you trusted your process, you didn’t know what was going to come up, you weren’t in control of it all. But you trusted yourself and the music, you like to kind of just go with it and see where it had, where it went.

And here we go, we’ve got a finished product that you’re kind of really happy with. Because I think sometimes a lot of new writers feel that they’ve got to know every detail before they can start writing.

But often, the details are already in our brain, we’ve just got to trust ourselves to let them out. And and your story there, I think is a great example of that. That would you can just… yeah.

 Cat Lumb  26:27

Yeah, sometimes I think you just have to give yourself over to the star, I certainly have novels, I never used to believe that characters took over, you know, I was like, you know, as a writer, you should be my partner thinks this, as a writer, you should be in control of your characters, they should really do what you tell them to.

And that is not how it works. In the first novel that I ever wrote, I had the doctor’s wife who was supposed to be a background character, you never saw her. And yet, somehow she ended up in loads of scenes.

And I just couldn’t stop her from coming into these scenes. So in the end, she actually became an integral part of the story.

And that’s what she was trying, it was my brain knocking on my door saying, she needs to be in the story, you have to let her into the story.

So I think if, as writers you do have to learn to trust sometimes, and you do have to believe that where your imagination is taking you is the place that needs to go for this story to be told.

 

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Emma Dhesi  27:25

Now, you’ve mentioned obviously, already, but just to kind of I’d love to delve into a little bit more that not only do you write your own stories, but you help other people write their stories, too. And I wonder if you could tell us about the right catalyst?

 Cat Lumb  27:40

Yes, so I am the right catalyst, helping writers get that novel their dream have written and done. And it was something that I never thought I would do as a writing coach. You know, for me, I was a museum educator.

But the more and more that I got involved and realized my own writing process that we have, the more I realize that I actually have a lot of knowledge and confidence that I can share with other writers.

So I set up the right catalyst, we do plan your novel challenges, which is one of my email challenges. And I do I have a Facebook group where I do a top Tip Tuesday live, every Tuesday, we’re talking about writing in the process. I do a monthly webinar, every month different topic, new webinar, and we’ll just get together for an hour. And we talk about all things writing.

And I absolutely love it, it lights me up. Because I think sometimes we take for granted that if we can do something that everyone must be able to do with certainly with writing, you know, even through school, it’s like you should be able to write.

And I think we forget that as adults, we forget that we can trust our imagination. And the confidence that we can build up just by having someone else say you can do this is actually one of the core things I think people need from a writing coach, it’s a reminder that, you know, it is always going to be easy, there are going to be hard days and how you actually get through those hard days can be really helped by having that belief.

Even if you don’t believe in yourself, someone else is there saying you can do this. This is how you do it. You know, you’ve done this, and actually recognizing that they’re doing more than they think a lot of my clients, I find like they come to meetings and say I haven’t done a lot of writing this week.

But I did plot out this and I did do some character development. And I did research this and I’m like, that’s all writing. putting words on the page isn’t always the end. Sometimes you do have to do the legwork that goes beneath it.

So I think we take for granted sometimes that writing is putting words on the page when it’s so much more than that.

 Emma Dhesi  29:59

Yes, and so do you, you mentioned that people they come to the groups? Do you work with small groups? Or do you do one to one? Or both? How does it work?

 Cat Lumb  30:08

I generally do the webinars for sort of groups. But I do a lot of my one to one work, I really love sort of delving into individual writers, how we can best sort of help them in their process, and is very much it’s not a cookie cutter type of thing.

You can’t say, this is how you, this is how this person writes. So you must write like that. And again, that’s something that I think can be very intimidating for new writers, they’ll look to other writers, when actually, it should be what works for you. When do you have time? How can you carve out that time?

What boundaries Can you put in to make sure that you prioritize your writing time, other, you know, scrolling through Facebook, for example.

And so did a lot of one to one, either, sort of to individual sort of meetings to one to one, I know a lot of coaches only do like an hour, but I tend to do 230 minute one so that we can look at a problem putting some solutions, and then review and reflect I think the reflection bit is really important.

And so I do that as sort of a two week process. I do a six week coaching one. But I also do a three month one called get drafted where we work on either getting that first draft down, our editing it so that it’s a publishable standard.

So and I really, really enjoy working with clients on those.

 Emma Dhesi  31:29

Yes, yeah, I like one to one, working with people one to one and really seeing that transformation, and seeing their face light up when they realize there have overcome something they were struggling with, or even get to the end of that draft and are really happy with it and think, oh, that eureka moment that they’ve done it is very…

 Cat Lumb  31:48

Yeah. and those the insights that they get along the way, one of the reasons I love working on one to one is because you get to hear more about their story. And their characters, and you get to see their characters develop and the story develop.

And I love that as a you know, I’m a bit nosy. I like to read everything. So getting a preview into some of the best sellers that are going to come out in the next sort of five years.

 Emma Dhesi  32:19

And know so with your students, so I wondered if you could just share with us, maybe one or two of the more common stumbling blocks that you see your students come across your clients come across?

 Cat Lumb  32:34

Well, I think it’s one of the ones I think you focus on a lot with your writers here as well is time. And saying that you don’t have time to write, and I’m very much of a believer Are you got MC time you can only find it.

And one of the key things that I see is that the people as writers, we don’t prioritize our writing time. And by that, I mean because it’s four rows. And it’s only something that we do. And generally, we do it alone, that people think it’s not important.

o they will do things for other people, or they will do the housework. You know, our, you know, the kids will come in and say, our where’s this Mambo and all this. And then they will go and find that with them. Where was I’m very much a believer that if it’s important to you, it’s important.

And this is something I repeat to my clients over and over again, if it’s important to you, it’s important. And prioritizing that isn’t something that we should feel guilty about. It isn’t something we should feel ashamed about.

And it isn’t something that we should let other people take away from us. So I find a lot of the time that people are trying to please other people more than they’re trying to please themselves. And so that’s one of the things it’s sort of that that time, but also the guilt that’s associated with the time that I see a lot.

And it breaks my heart because I know exactly what that is like I’ve been through that. And it’s only by putting in some boundaries are actually stepping up and saying, I am a writer, which means I do need my writing time.

You know, it’s not an argument, it’s a statement. So I think that’s probably something I work the most on my clients with that self belief and the underlying prioritization and the boundaries that need to be put in.

 Emma Dhesi  34:34

Yeah, that guilt one is a funny one, isn’t it? It’s then that we would feel guilty for doing something that gives us so much pleasure and makes us feel happy. And I don’t know if it’s women in particular, but it’s it’s a strange one. It’s ammmm

 Cat Lumb  34:48

Do you said married women? Yeah.

 Emma Dhesi  34:51

Now I blog posts of yours recently was and maybe we’ve maybe answered this a little bit already, but I’d still love to hear your answer is I saw a blog post that was, you know, what does it take to finish a novel?

Because in my experience, certainly, it can be very easy to start one, but it’s a lot harder to finish one. So what what’s your thoughts on that? What does it take to finish a novel?

 Cat Lumb  35:16

A lot of determination. And a lot of self belief, as you say, you’ve got to get past that point of thinking that you can’t do it. I think the word can’t is a terrible, terrible word. And I always advise my clients to moderate it.

And so I can’t yet or I can’t until, but I think to finish a novel for me, it’s, it is that thing of not going back to the first chapter and re editing it over and over and over again, just because I mean, the amount of times that I’ve written a book, you know, I put most of it in between eight and 10.

Now full length novels, and the first chapter, or even the second chapter, are no longer relevant by the time I’ve got to the end. So why, you know, you don’t need to perfect those the first time round.

And again, it is just that sitting down every day, or at least as much as you can. And just keep going. And just keep going. And sometimes I know how difficult Why is, because sometimes you do get stuck. And then as I said, the what if tree really helps me there.

And there are usually some mental blocks. But I think what it takes to finish a novel is self belief, knowing that other people have done it. So you can do it. It’s, you know, you if you’re a reader, you’ve got bookshelves, and you know, that hundreds of hundreds of books.

And each one of those books is evidence that it can be done. So writers that you read, and that you admire, and that you think I’ll never be as good as them.

They thought the exact same thing about other writers. So it’s never seeing other writers, it’s competition, it’s always making sure that you’re seeing them as inspiration, that is literally the proof that it can be done. And that you can do this as well, because they did it.

And I absolutely love that. And it’s something that I do, I tend to talk about a lot in my facebook group. And I think, for me, it’s certainly something that has pushed me forward, when I’ve met other writers, and that I’ve spoken to them.

We’re all just people, you know, even like Stephen King, jack Kerouac, all of these authors that are big and massive, and millionaires, and we think will never be that good. It’s a case of they’re just people. And they’re messy first draft, you’ll probably never see.

But comparing your messy first draft with their beautiful finished published novel that’s had editors work on it and all of this, that’s not a fair comparison. So you have to sort of take that step back and realize that we all have messy first drafts.

We are all at that point where we believe that we’re stuck in the story. And it’s a case of you are not alone. And that’s one of the reasons why I love the writing community so much on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. We all support one another because we all know what it’s like.

And sometimes that can be as soothing as it is comforting.

 Emma Dhesi  38:29

Yeah. Or such wise words, their cat, it’s so true that we It’s so unfair for us to compare our first draft for the finished product on the shelf. And I certainly use that myself a lot. Just to remind myself when I’m feeling really low and thinking, Oh, this is rubbish.

This is awful. Just it’s all this part of the process. And if they can do it, I can do it and not not to get that comparison itis. Yeah. So tell me, what are you working on at the moment.

If you’ve been working on your novel for years (perhaps even decades) the maybe it's time to consider working with a coach.

If you have multiple versions of your novel and you don’t know which works best, are scared nobody will like your book and don't feel like a 'real' writer, then my guess is coaching is the right next step for you.

Find out more and sign up for your free Clarity Call here: https://emmadhesi.com/personal-coaching/

 

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Cat Lumb  38:59

So currently, I am editing a novel, that it’s back into my women’s fiction sort of genre, but more comfortable. And it’s about a girl or a woman who focused on her career. And then she discovers that her boyfriend of six years and has been cheating on her with her protege.

And not only that, but everybody that she knows, knows about that and hasn’t told her and it’s been going on for years. And it’s very much about how she then responds to that and rebuild her life and rebuild trust.

So I think trust is going to be a big theme for this one as well. So I’m currently doing final edits on that before we go on to some more agents.

So I already have it on submission once and got the lovely form rejections that you can you can get as a writer that you should be proud of because they’re proof that you tried.

So I’m just editing it tightening up a little bit more. There’s been a couple Things that I’ve picked up on that I want to change. So I’m doing that, and then that will go out again for submission probably in June.

 Emma Dhesi  40:10

So you’ve Yeah, because your first book and my writing thinking you self published that one. Now you’re going out for submissions was was that?

Was that always the plan? Or have you had to kind of change your thought process about the publishing process?

 Cat Lumb  40:25

I think certainly when I first started out traditional publishing was the be all and end all. And, you know, it’s the put it on a pedestal and look up at it and dream about it. I think, for me, traditional publishing is is a way to reach more readers.

And that’s probably why I’m going for it. The reason I self published in lies with trust was because that was a novel that I was very proud of, it would have probably taken years to get it through the traditional publishing route, especially considering the competition spy thriller, genres.

And I didn’t want to wait. And I thought readers deserve to have it now. So I mean, that’s the joy of self publishing it, it allows you instant access to readers.

And the star is, and again, that was one of the reasons why I published my first short story collection, the memorial tree, that included some of the stories that I’d had on submission, as well.

And it was just a way to get out there and to almost put my name out there. So people started seeing what I was doing. So I think for me, I will always do some form of self publishing. I think I’ve now accepted that. It’s fun, it gets me to readers.

And, you know, there is no big difference between self publishing and traditional publishing anymore, as long as you’ve got a book that you are proud of. And, you know, you’ve edited properly.

And so I think that for me, the traditional publishing route for sort of the commercial restriction will just get me to reach more readers. And also take an element at that marketing stuff that I don’t like doing.

I think as writers, we kind of like, I don’t mind being behind the screen, but when it comes to shouting about how great my work is, you know, self belief isn’t that far yet.

And so yeah, so that’s one of the things, one of the things that I’ll do is I’ll have to the two strands of publishing the self publishing under traditional publishing.

 Emma Dhesi  42:20

It does feel like is the way forward for many people is that hybrid approach. And so thanks for sharing that I was just good to know what your process was. So listen, cat, where can our listeners find out more about you and what you do?

 Cat Lumb  42:34

So yeah, you can find me at my website, catlumb.com. You’ll find my blog there, which has posts about my writing life with Hugo the destroyer. And also as the right catalyst I blog. They’re using writing tips and things like what does it take to finish your novel.

And they can also find me on Twitter at cat on the scholar. And if they’re on Facebook, the right catalyst page, Facebook group, both free to join.

And like I said, a good live every Tuesday with Tip Tuesday in my facebook group. So if you look for the right catalyst, come and join the group, we’d love to have you

 Emma Dhesi  43:09

Fantastic Thank you very much. I’ll be sure to put links to that in the show notes. To make it that bit easier. That’s lovely, Cat, thank you so much for your time today.

 Cat Lumb  43:18

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been really good fun having a chat with you about writing.

 Emma Dhesi  43:22

Thank you. And just before we sign off, I want to remind you to go over to my Patreon page, where not only will you find further conversation as previous guests, but Cat has very kindly agreed to read an excerpt from her novel, and she has a writing prompt for you We shall find over @patreon.com/Emma Dhesi. Thanks very much.

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational. Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, Turning readers into writers.

It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel. If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called three secret hacks to write with consistency.

So go to Emmadhesi.com/turning readers into writers. Hit join. Can’t wait to see you in there. All right. Thank you. Bye bye.

 

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Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

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How to set writing goals with Heather Wright

How to set writing goals with Heather Wright

by

How to set writing goals with Heather Wright

by Emma Dhesi | Turning Readers Into Writers

Interview with Heather Wright

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome and here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focused on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com, where you’ll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started.

Before we dive in, this week’s episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write. In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life.

Now you might be thinking that you don’t have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn’t think you had. If you thought writing always involved a pen and paper or a keyboard. Think again.

If you thought you needed at least an hour at a time to write your manuscript. I help you reframe that you won’t be disappointed. Get your free copy of 30 Top Tips to find time to write by going to emmadhesi.com/30TopTips.

Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Heather Wright is a freelance writer, writing about everything from orchids to wind turbines to weddings to PVC pipe. She lives in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada where she taught English and communications for over 20 years, so she can analyse the odd novel and parse a sentence, too. 

She writes for the web, for national and local publications and for educational publishers and industry. 

Canadian Society for Children’s Authors, Illustrators, and Performers, the American Society for Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators, and the Canadian Authors Association. 

Heather says she couldn’t imagine her life without writers, watching them become motivated and empowered, and reading the great work they create. As a coach she loves working one on one with writers of all ages. Her clients have ranged in age from 11 to 90. 

When she’s not writing Heather loves red liquorice, buttered popcorn and chocolate although not altogether she adds! She loves music, old films (TSM is her friend). She sings soprano in a choir. When she’s not doing all this she’s learning to sing jazz.

So let’s find out a little bit more about Heather, her journey to writing and how she helps writers write their own first novel.

Well, hi, Heather. And thank you so much for joining me today.

Heather Wright  03:14

I’m so happy to be here. And I can’t wait to to carry on what we’re doing.

Emma Dhesi  03:18

Yay. Well, I wonder if you could First we’ll start off by telling our listeners a little bit about you your your kind of journey with writing and how you got to really, why know…

Heather Wright  03:29

Amm my journey to writing started with Nancy Drew mysteries. I don’t know if they have those in the UK. But they’re mystery stories featuring a young protagonist. She always had a new car. And they were just for kids.

They were they started writing them in the 30s. And they’re still around today. And I thought that’s what I wanted to do. I wanted to be Carolyn Keene, I wanted to write mystery stories.

And I did, and I wrote other things, none of which were worthy of anybody seeing I loved we had creative writing in high school. So I was really lucky that way.

And then I kind of left it for a while studied, did all sorts of things that jobs worked and one day I thought this is silly, I really want to write so I would write and I started out with short stories and I had a couple of those published and then there was another long pause and then I had a baby and I don’t know why that inspired me to think I had time to do this. But but that seemed to be the trigger.

And I launched myself into writing historical romances joined a writing group evolved from there and then oh, things took a backseat again, I was teaching it’s such a busy life and my students were writing I I always had them writing and I would write with them and one day, I just thought, you know, I’ve got to start, I try to model like, I mean, if they’re gonna write, I’m gonna write and share if they want to hear it and I decided I would do and I got a gig doing articles for a magazine that was designed for young creatives.

And I wrote an article every month on writing, how to write tips for writing, dialogue, beginnings, that sort of thing, things that I had taught for years, and I got halfway through my nanowrimo novel, and realize, that’s not what I want to write, I want to write this, I want to write a book for teen writers, that gives them all the lessons that that I’ve learned over the years and some short cuts in some hands on things that they can do and I checked other writers, books, writing books for teens, I didn’t see anything like the one I wanted to write so I wrote it and self published it and that was the first and I just kept going.

A lot of my books are nonfiction. A lot of my books are to help writers, young writers, any writers. I’ve written some fiction, I’ve had some fiction published. I just kept going. And I also added, you know, freelancing to my part time life. So I part time taught. And then, in my free time, I was writing about the law and, and orchids, and wind turbines, and you name it, and I still do that kind of stuff today.

Emma Dhesi  06:47

Gosh, a real mix them there. That’s there. It sounds like you really write for the love of it more than anything.

Heather Wright  06:54

I.. it’s funny, you say that a friend of mine is also a writer. And her son was she was complaining about something in the car. And her son says, Well, you know what, Mom, you haven’t done any joy writing.

And so that’s a term that we continue to use, you know, we what we should be doing is our joy writing. And if we don’t do the joy writing, then then life gets pretty grim. So yeah, we do rate for the joy of it and I think that’s, that’s, if it’s not fun, I mean, it’s work. I mean, writing, I don’t get me wrong, getting something from beginning, middle through end is work.

But there needs to be some joy in it some joy in the thought that someone’s going to read it, that you’re going to help someone that you’re you’re exploring your ideas and putting them down on paper, and that’s giving you energy and, and clarifying things, wherever the joy comes from there, there needs to be a little bit in there. I think it’s hard to get to the end with them.

Emma Dhesi  07:58

Yes, you, my mentor says very much the same thing. But he kind of describes it as a passion project. And it feels he needs to have that little passion project that keeps you keeps that there reminds you why you’re doing it. Because as you say, getting from A to B can be very hard work. And so having those miserable interjections of passion and joy keeps us fresh and reminding us why we did this in the first place.

And that is exactly fun. Yeah. But I love that. You, you said that you don’t know why. But having a child kind of made you think, well, that’s the time to start writing.

And interesting, actually, because that was a similar thing, a similar situation for myself and a number of other women I’ve talked to, and it’s almost like having a child starting a family is this kind of catalyst and a life big life change anyway, and so why not add this one extra mix into the into the array as well.

Heather Wright  08:59

And I think having a child makes you think about the future and what your quotes legacy might be, then you think, you know, my future is this long.

And if I want to do this project, or I want to write or I want to paint or I want to do anything, what am I waiting for? There’s, you know, there’s there’s a limited light, we have a limited lifespan, and maybe, you know, you’re looking into the future and you’re sort of seeing your son graduate from college, and you’re thinking what am I doing in the meantime?

Maybe I should accomplish something here. That would be a plan. I don’t know. It just seemed to be the catalyst for me. I just thought, yeah, I’m going to pursue this and it started out with a workshop day with a really talented workshop leader named Brian Henry and just launched from there.

Emma Dhesi  09:52

Yeah, it seems to me like a decision suddenly, when for whatever reason, we make a decision that we’re going to do this. Now. This is going to happen. This is my time to do it.

Heather Wright  10:01

Yeah, to make that investment in yourself?

 

 

 

Emma Dhesi  10:04

Yes, yes, because it isn’t even with just with time and energy, it is a big investment. So you’ve come a long way then since those early days of short stories, and and now you help, you mentioned that before, I didn’t realize that you had a background in teaching, which hopefully has helped you, or giving you this affinity with teens and understanding teens and how they work.

And so that’s one of the areas that you’re specializing with your sort of coaching side, is helping teens to write their book. And so I’m interested if there if there is a difference between and what it is, if there is a difference, what it is between coaching, say, an adult writer and a teen writer, are there any differences and, you know, if I wanted to encourage my daughter to write, what would be good ways of doing that.

Heather Wright  10:56

I think the teen writers that I have worked with, come to me with work. Like they have written stuff, pages and pages of stuff.

Emma Dhesi  11:14

Okay.

Heather Wright  11:14

And they want to know how to make it better. And they want feedback on their plot and characters. And they come with, they come with all of this material and I find my adult coaching people come with ideas and concerns. And I’m How can I get this done?

And I don’t know how to write and I don’t know how to do this, and what format should this be. And it’s quite, they’re quite dissimilar in what they bring to a coaching session, or even what they bring to a workshop. I have more having run teen workshops and an adult workshops.

The teens are, they’re in the middle of something, and they are keen to get it done and their work, they’re taking risks, and they’re trying to explore things and they’re sharing, and adults are well, I’ve started something and willing partway through, there’s a lot more doubt.

My adults have so much more doubt and, and that’s my battle as battle. But that’s my purpose, as workshop leader or coach is to put that aside and get into story and creating and, and having them achieve and accomplish and meet milestones that give them confidence to keep to keep going.

Emma Dhesi  12:47

I see. So it sounds like what I’m kind of hearing is that the team has come ready to dive in. They don’t have those same inhibitions that we adults do. And and they sound very prolific, but they are just ready to to do the job they there.

That that encouraging them to write is not the problem actually. It’s part of the trip

Heather Wright  13:12

No, they come they come believing they’re writers. And I’m you know, maybe I have to thank the school system for that. somebody out there doesn’t is they believe their writers, they get feedback from their friends and their friends encourage them and they have their forums, none of which I can think of at the moment what’s what’s something comes to mind, where they put their work out there for anybody to read.

And they’re quite happy to take that risk and comment and others and be involved in that conversation around writing. It blows me away, and it’s very energizing.

Emma Dhesi  13:47

It must be very nice for you as the facilitator to have just Whoo, let’s go for it. Let’s do it.

Heather Wright  13:58

Yeah, it is. It’s very much let’s go for it. And, and I remember running one workshop and everyone was so quiet. They were just like little mice. You know, to get fit to get them to talk was really something but they were listening so hard because I wasn’t grading them.

Teachers grade what they do. So I wasn’t grading them. And I was talking to them writer to writer which they don’t get they get teacher to writer, teacher to student, they don’t get writer to writer. And they got a ton out of that the feedback I got on that was amazing.

But they were just caught in that that funny place where they just wanted to listen and do and keep going. So the energy was very different. But I’ve had groups where it’s very vocal as teenagers as anyways, they can be.

Emma Dhesi  14:52

Yeah. It’s a kind of, I guess it’s reflecting those stages of life that we’re in, I suppose when we are young, and we’re Teenagers are even in our early 20s. We are, you know, much more rebellious for much we’re seeking adrenaline, we’re looking for adventure.

And then as we get older and we become parents, we start to kind of be much more cautious. And so perhaps not just, you know, laughing at myself here, because I’m a much more cautious driver, for example than I ever used to be when I had a family.

And so maybe it’s just sort of mirroring, mirroring life when we are more cautious and more worried about what could go wrong with our writing, rather than when we’re these young people who were have our whole lives and our whole writing lives ahead of us. And we can achieve what we want.

Heather Wright  15:41

I think that’s, I think that’s true. And I think it has, some of it might, depending on the age of the people, the adults in my class, as some of it has to do with what younger people read. They read a lot of fast fiction, there’s a lot like those 100 pages from the, you know, for that they can plow through very quickly. And it’s story and dialogue and zoom.

And so many fantasy writers, they love speculative fiction, where they can just let their imaginations go and create worlds, and they tackle that with such heart and enthusiasm.

And I think, adults, certainly, well, no, my age is a bit old, but younger than I maybe weren’t read, we’re reading that kind of material. So when we say we want to write a story, our models are maybe a little more confined, and restricted than the ones that they have that that seem to have so many options to do just about anything.

And I think adults are wary when they’re told what you can do just anything.

Emma Dhesi  16:50

That’s so true. That’s really interesting that you say that, because certainly, and I do see that question come up quite a bit. Well, whoa, you know, I’m writing romance, or I’m writing a thriller. How long is it got to be?

And it sounds like because we’ve got all these new fought with the advent of self publishing, we’ve got all these new forums, you’ve got your flash fiction, right through to your huge, great big speculative stuff. So we’ve got what 500 words, no 50 words.

Sometimes it can be Yep. Right, all the way up to 400,000 words. But mid certainly, you know, my example was your, your 300, 300 to 350 word book, even for probably for children not far off that. Whereas No, this was great.

They can mix and they hadn’t really thought about that how, with each new generation coming up, it’s going to change the face of publishing and writing all over again, we thought we’ve seen the biggest shift with the advent of indie, but maybe actually, it’s going to bring with it another shift in the face of publishing and what’s out there.

Heather Wright  17:59

Well the the freedom that indie gives you and self publishing gives you is there are no page restrictions. Because most people read self published books, most people when people start reading on tablets, there is no page count limit, because depending on the size of your font, the book is the book is as long as it is, it’s the number of flicks on the screen.

And so if I want to write a romance, that’s 10,000 words, I can do that and publish it. If I want to write one that’s 75,000 words, I can do that too. And you know, you adjust your price accordingly. And the markets there for a short read or a long one.

And it’s changed. It’s changed writers and it’s changed. It’s changed readers, because readers can pick and choose, they can say I’m looking, could you actually go on Amazon and say I want a three hour read. I want a two hour read. So your traffic noise.

So that’s exactly that was never open to readers before. And therefore it’s open to writers to say I’m going to specialize in books you can read in an hour, you know, on the on the on the train on my commute, you know, on my train into the city, whatever it is, I want to read a book in an hour.

Emma Dhesi  19:23

Yeah, that’s given me a whole new a new area to think about actually thank you for that because I’m still very much caught in those boundaries of what I’ve been told and allowed to do and what’s what’s the norm. And so that’s given me given me food for thoughts. Yes, thanks very much for them.

Heather Wright  19:41

Well, it’s, it’s, it’s something to think about that. A story is as long as it needs to be to be told. And writers can they can, can tell the story the way they want to and as many words as they want to and and many will find the readership.

You know, It’s, you know that the the that world has has changed a lot. It’s changed a lot expectations of readers and expectations for writers have really changed. And that’s a good thing. I think that’s a good thing, especially for writers. It It opens, opens a lot of doors.

And I mean doors for traditional publishing are very tightly shut. It’s a very tough world to get into. So so many more are turning to, to independent publishing to, to self publishing. So why not find those niches for your story that are that are out there?

Interview with Heather Wright

Emma Dhesi  20:43

Yeah. Well, talking of niches do you notice? I’m thinking of both your your younger writers and your adult writers, do you notice any overlap, not so much in the style, but in the themes that are written about do we still no matter what age we are, we still kind of tend to write about the same things, whether it be about love, or relationships or danger, whatever it might be.

Heather Wright  21:08

Ammm Relationships, I think are probably top of the list, even the the ones writing fantasy. You know, there are people with characters who are coming together tearing apart, lying, being discovered, falling in love, none of that is going to change.

I don’t think that I think people are always going to be human folly, and whatever still gonna be the heart of every of every story, what I find in my adult, the many of the adults and many adult writers, they often want to tell someone else’s story or their own memoir is something they’re keenly interested in.

And maybe, maybe more. So now, I don’t know, whether it’ll change. But certainly in the pre COVID years, people want to tell us they find out about family members, they want to tell a story of their mother, they want to tell a story of their grandparents who emigrated and, and found a new life and what they went through, there’s a huge interest in telling that story.

Some people want to tell their own story they’ve, what they’ve learned about life and finding happiness or whatever it is overcoming struggles. Those are our definite themes along my my adult writers, it’s, it’s explaining and tell it often telling someone else’s story.

I mean, I still have Mystery Writers and fantasy writers and romance writers in the mix. But there’s a good chunk who really want to write memoir.

Emma Dhesi  22:55

I wonder if that’s them. I wonder if that’s an extension of I don’t know, if you remember, but certainly, certainly here in the UK, and I think in their North America as well.

There’s been this real uplift up surging of people researching their family history. And so maybe this is a sort of the second wave of that now we find out all this information, we’d like to share it with others and tell the story rather than just have it left on a file somewhere. We want to…

Heather Wright  23:25

Yeah, there’s a lot of I don’t how many ads we see every day for ancestry dot ball ca for where I am. And, you know, going back and finding out these things about your family tree. I think that’s that’s quite true.

I think people are encouraged to, to do that. I know my father in law has has one side of the family back to the 1700s. Sometimes So, you know, funny, some of them are rascals. But anyhow, yeah. I think there is that.

I think there is that maybe maybe in in times when looking forward is kind of defeating, you know, so much. It’s uncertain, that maybe looking back has a real fascination. finding out where I’m from. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Emma Dhesi  24:22

Now, I’m going to change tack a little bit, and if I’ve taken a trip down memory lane there, but I’d wonder if you could tell me about that Spy writers from Kw.

Heather Wright  24:33

Okay, I’m Laurie Wolf Hefner is Kitchener writer. And she’s also my former grade 11 students. I taught her English and in school in high school. And even though I knew she was going to be a writer then just knew and she wanted them something she wanted very much.

So Fast forward many years, and I was the president of our local branch of the professional Writers Association of Canada. And Laurie came to a meeting and joined and it was like, remembering.

So I’m in the process we met, we met again there and reconnected and she got to a point in her life when she decided I’m going to sit down, and I’m going to write and she was she’s writing a series, which is fascinating because it takes place in present day in my hometown, Kitchener, and also 100 years ago, in Romania. And it met her ancestors, and a young woman there.

So there’s a teen in Kitchener and a teen in Romania. And so this there’s a chapter on each as you go through the so you get to stories of what’s going on in each person’s life. Of course, they’re quite different.

One is just has just come out of World War One, the families just come out of World War One, excuse me. And the father is has gone to Canada to to try and earn enough to bring them over.

And then our young girl here in Kitchener, she has just come here from West with her family, because her grandfather is in the early stages of dementia, and they’ve come to live with him and take care of him and the girl that connects them is the grandfather’s mother. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a great series, I think she’s on book eight.

So I act as her, her first reader I Well, I, she sent we talked, we have a meeting where we talk about the story where she’s going to go, then she writes the outline, and I go through the outline and give her my feedback.

So we’ve been doing this for eight books now. So her background is even though she was they were living in Romania, the the language they spoke its german and so in my my community Kitchener used to be called Berlin, it’s a very german community was to announce, you know, the melting pot, but excuse me in early days, it was, it was a very german community.

So we decided we would get together and do the market circuit. So in the craft fairs and sell our books, and do that sort of thing. And we needed a banner for the two of us. And since there were two, and she has the German heritage, we became the Spy writers of KW. And that’s what we do.

So we’ve done workshops together, we switched the virtual last year, we were planning to do them in person, and in March and April. So needless to say, they went virtual. So that’s what we have done and but with COVID, we’ve sort of we’ve let that go.

But I think when things improve, we hope to get back to the market circle, again, and the craft fairs, and there’s a kW, a women’s show that we love and other things like that, and get back to doing the workshops, because we tag team very well.

She publishes independently. And so why and? Yeah, we’ve I think we bring a lot as a as a tag team to, to writers.

Emma Dhesi  28:25

Yeah. Well, I’ll circle back to that in a bit actually, just to talk about kind of the idea of mentorship, and working with somebody, either one on one or in a small group.

And just before we do a lot of my listeners, you know, they’re new writers, they’re either want to write a book, or they’re in the process of writing their first book and coming up, you know, up against the usual common challenges that we all do.

And the most common one, is this, the finding the time to write, particularly those that are just on the cusp of starting, what advice do you have for new writers that might give them that boost? That that something that might just get them over the over the lip, and writing? You know, finding that time?

Heather Wright  29:15

I think one of the the roadblocks is the fact that what you’re doing is really, really big, like, it involves a lot of words and you almost get choked by that thought, like, Oh, my gosh, I have to produce, you know, 65,000 words to make this novel.

So I think a couple of things, one that I highly recommend, that I that I got from someone else, needless to say, is mini habits. And there’s a whole book about this. I can’t remember the man who wrote it, but it’s called mini habits.

And basically, you set really small goals for yourself, because when you fail something you think, Oh, I wasn’t motive. faded enough, and I wasn’t disciplined enough, and you’re very, very negative.

And then that just breeds like, Why do it the next time, so I’ll just feel negative again. But if you set up a mini goal and achieve it, then you are motivated to keep going sometimes. So if your mini MC and then he means Mini, so my mini goal per day might be I’m going to write 50 words.

That’s it, just 50 words. So at 10 minutes before bedtime, I can meet my goal, and I can get my 50 words done. And I wake up the next morning knowing I’ve written 50 words, and I’ve met my goal. So I’m not a failure, I’m a success. So the next day when I have time, and I sit down and write 50 words, I may just, I mean, I’m not gonna stop at 50 words, because I’ve got a good idea going, and I’m going to write three, four paragraphs.

Well, there’s my page. So it’s kind of a mind trick, but I think it over, it helps you overcome that defeat when you don’t write every day. And you think, oh, how can I be a writer if I don’t write every day. And I think if you set yourself a little mini goal, and you write it every day, then you are a writer, and you’re piling success on success and words, on words. And I thought it was a really positive way to approach it.

Rather than saying, well, you need the discipline. And you need to say the other key thing, one other key thing that I think writers need is forgiveness. When you don’t do it, that day, you know, forgive yourself stuff happens, especially in the last year.

Plus, the fact that anybody’s writing anything, I think, is a minor miracle. Because the strain and stress of just getting up every day and carrying on. It’s hard to be creative, when all your energy is just into how am I going to get groceries today? And how am I going to keep my family safe? And how am I going to be safe? And how am I going to protect my mother.

That the you know, the fact that anybody can put a creative word on the page, I think is a miracle. But if you put 25 words on a page, or 50 words on a page, you’re still honoring that, that creative person inside of you.

And it’s a little progress, and you’re not a failure, because you did it, you met your goal. So I think I think that comes into it. I mean, other things I would encourage people to do is think about, and I’m sure you’ve probably suggested this is true a couple of days write down how they spend their time, you know, make a lot of, Oh, I just imagine you look back and you go, I spent 35 minutes playing freecell.

Now, maybe I could have spent 15 of those, you know, writing a page. And if you do the math, this is the other encouraging thing. I think, if you do the math, and you type slowly, like say 35 words a minute, which was the fastest I ever got in high school on a typewriter.

You can write, I can do the math 10 minutes, you can get a page. You know.

 

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Emma Dhesi  33:12

I think people underestimate, how, how, how powerful just writing for a small amount of time is, I think a lot of people have this vision of a real writer in inverted commas, who sits and writes for three, four hours a day.

And actually, that that’s exhausting for most of us, but you can in small bursts get so much done. My I am very similar to you in that if I’m having one of those days, and I really can’t bear the thought of sitting down to write but I know, you know, this is my job, I’ve got to do it.

I tell myself, all you’ve got to do is write 50 words. That’s all you’ve got to do. And then you’ve made progress towards getting you know, if you’ve shown up, you’ve done your job, just do those 50 words and it all adds up.

And it’s never ceases to astound me just how much progress can be made by doing that a little bit every day or a little bit regularly. You know, even not every day, but two, three times a week. Yeah.

Heather Wright  34:15

Well, I know from my own experience, when I have said, oh, I’ve got a whole afternoon to write. I can fritter that away. Just I’m just a professional fritter. I think I mean, the I don’t spend three hours writing I really don’t, I don’t have the brain for it.

Like after 500 words, I have to get up go for a walk. I gotta get up and walk around. So you know, saying oh, I’ve got a whole day I’m gonna don’t don’t put so much pressure on yourself because chances are you just won’t do it. But you know, 50 words you can do and sometimes if you write 50, you’ll keep writing the next 50 and the next 50 and, and every every 250 is a page, so…

Emma Dhesi  35:01

Oh, fantastic, great, great, great tips there, you know, the many, many goals, and then forgiveness as well, which is so important for some reason to be very cruel to ourselves when it comes to surviving.

I want to kind of circle back on what you were talking about before with and with Laurie and being kind of having this mentorship relationship tag teaming with how you described it, which was nice.

And that’s something I know that you offer and you offer coaching, do you do that internationally? Or is it kind of locally or an in person that you do it?

Heather Wright  35:39

I have done both actually. It with, with zoom. And, you know, you can talk to anybody, anywhere? When we when Lori and I did our workshops, they were online, and we had people from all across Canada join us.

And we’re not too sure why or how but so we’re unlimited today. The only challenges, you know times. Yes. You know, yeah, calculating who’s awake when? and that sort of thing.

But otherwise, yeah, anywhere, mostly I’ve had been lucky to have in person and local clients that we can meet over coffee but now of course we don’t. So yeah, we reached online.

Emma Dhesi  36:34

So what kind of coaching Do you offer? Is it one to one generally? Or is it through this small group workshops? or What does it look like?

Heather Wright  36:41

I’ve wanted one, one to one. And my goal is to to guide the person toward what they want. And that takes some digging sometimes is to, you know, finding out where they where they really want to go with whatever they they want to write, whether it’s memoir, or, you know, fiction.

Because I think that’s, that’s important that I’ve was reading recently, someone was talking about critique groups and how they felt that people in critique groups told you, you know, they heard your idea, and then they told you how they would write it.

And that was their critique. And, you know, that’s not really helpful. You want to know how you how they think you should keep writing it, or how you could change it based on what your goals are for those characters, or whatever it happens to be.

So I’m very aware of, of doing that of being as much in their headspace on on their goals. And what they see for the story is I can, but I come in at all stages, I’ve just worked with a person who is has just finished, it’s it’s she has the books.

She was a nurse in a summer camp and the summer camp is, I don’t know, 75 years old. So she felt and there’s no history of it. So she’s written a history of this particular summer camp.

And that’s what so it’s nonfiction with some with her memories and memories of other people incorporated in this and she just turned 91. So in her case, I came in, and she’d written a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff, but it wasn’t in the right order.

And it didn’t flow. And it didn’t kind of it was good information. She was a good writer, I didn’t have to worry about the mechanics, but the to make it flow like a story. That was my challenge with her. Another writer. She calls me when she has an idea.

And she has a thing about like, she thinks she wants to write about this, and she has some ideas. And we talk sometimes she sends it to you know, sends it to me, and I’ll send it back. And then we just talk about it.

She records what we say and it just helps her work through the story ideas and think of things that she hadn’t thought of, or come at it from angles that she hadn’t thought of and then that’s all I do.

I’m just in on that early consult and, you know, because you when you’ve looked at an idea for so long you, you start seeing all the options, right? And then you go well, that’s all there must be something else and you just can’t see it for yourself.

But someone else comes in and their brain goes, Oh wow, you could do this or this and here’s an idea what about this side, you know, and that’s you just need that sort of input and then off you could go and that’s what I do for Laurie as well.

She comes at me with the ideas and then she turns them our conversation into an outline, a very detailed outline, and then she does that and and now she’s working on writing romance. So we’re doing the same kind of thing.

So it’s a it’s A lot of fun. Yeah, and a teen roadside… sorry?

If you’ve been working on your novel for years (perhaps even decades) the maybe it's time to consider working with a coach.

If you have multiple versions of your novel and you don’t know which works best, are scared nobody will like your book and don't feel like a 'real' writer, then my guess is coaching is the right next step for you.

Find out more and sign up for your free Clarity Call here: https://emmadhesi.com/personal-coaching/

 

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Emma Dhesi  40:03

So I was just gonna say, I think that shows the power of having a mentor or a coach is sometimes it’s not about the mechanics, as you mentioned, it’s about the brainstorming, it’s about the having someone who’s as interested in your project as you are, and who will give it that depth of time and energy and kind of brain work to help you move on and get to the finish line, essentially, just to know that you’re on the right track, you’ve got good ideas, keep going, keep going. And then someone to celebrate with at the end.

Heather Wright  40:36

It’s, yeah, I’m the cheerleader. You know, it’s it’s my job to, to give them that motivation. And sometimes it’s being the accountability partner. Because if they know they’re going to meet me in two weeks, then they feel compelled to produce sometimes just having someone waiting for you is a great way to get the work done.

So sometimes it’s it’s almost a matter of that knowing that she’s going to that she promised that mean in a month then then the material appears in a month. And that’s a good thing for that helps people keep sometimes that’s all I need, you know, yeah, I don’t get a lot into I haven’t had to I guess I’ve been very lucky that I haven’t had to worry about grammar and and mechanics too much.

Most people come with a pretty even my young writers I’ve had 11 year olds. They they know how to tell a story and write a sentence and and I give them some tips to you know, tighten things up maybe but for the most part, they’ve they, they’re where they should be. So it’s all good.

Emma Dhesi  41:46

Now, tell me about you because you are a prolific writer as well. You write a lot of nonfiction. Are you writing anything at the moment?

Heather Wright  41:56

Um, yeah, I have written a lot of nonfiction. And I love to I really wish I spent most of 2020 veiling, I was never ever going to have a creative idea for a story again, just nothing did air it was it was grim. I thought because even though I write nonfiction, part of me says, but you know, you want to write you want to write stories, Heather, you really do. So I had nothing. It was the dead zone.

And I came across it. Workshops inspire me. So I’d seen this workshop and I thought, Okay, I’m going to take that I’m going to learn about that. And it was writing a hallmark style screenplay. And I don’t know if you have those in the UK, but yes, you’re nodding. Yeah. Okay.

And so I took this workshop, which is very helpful, because they do have a formula as, as anyone who’s watched one can tell. And I thought this is, maybe this is the way I need to tell a story, not in prose, but in the format of a screenplay and so I invested in software, because oh my gosh, the formatting, it was pretty play. It’s beyond coping, if you try doing it in Word, or anywhere else, so invested in that, and I just finished my third. Wow.

And it seems that this is the way I should be telling stories because I just love every minute of it. I haven’t had such a joy writing in my life, it’s I have doing this. So… memorization that anything is off the plate,

Emma Dhesi  43:41

That’s amazing! doesn’t it? That shows that, you know, as creatives we are constantly evolving, and growing and trying new things and stretching ourselves, and depending on where we are in life, something will magically appear and grab our attention and off we go.

Heather Wright  44:01

And, you know, it’s literally never too late to do that. I turned 70 in October, so it’s just never too late. And I’ve just sent the first one out for coverage, which is screenwriting, the equivalent of having a professional critique it so

Emma Dhesi  44:20

like someone’s face.

Heather Wright  44:21

So that’s I’m very excited.

Emma Dhesi  44:24

Well, Heather, it’s been lovely chatting to you. Before we wrap up, can you let our listeners know where they can find out more about you and what you do?

Heather Wright  44:33

I have a website I just I’ll spell it out. It’s it’s wrightingwords.com but writing is spelled like my last name. So it’s wrightingwords.com. And there’s a ton of free stuff for writers there’s oh six 700 writing prompts for, you know to play with.

There are some free templates for you know, learning about your character. You’re for plotting all sorts of goodies. Oh, there’s links to useful resources, which I’m going to add yours to today. I had a look at your website.

This is awesome. So that’s fine. That’s that’ll go in as in my resources today. So yeah, lots of free stuff.

Emma Dhesi  45:21

Brilliant. But I’ll make sure I link to that in the show notes of the podcast. My goodness, Heather’s being fluid in our time together. I’ve really, really enjoyed our conversation. And I can see that you love writing you have a joy for what you do and the people you teach. So thank you for sharing some of that joy with us today.

Heather Wright  45:40

Oh, it’s been my pleasure, Emma, I really enjoyed my time here.

Emma Dhesi  45:44

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational. Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, Turning readers into writers.

It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel. If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called three secret hacks to write with consistency.

So go to Emmadhesi.com/turning readers into writers. Hit join. Can’t wait to see you in there. All right. Thank you. Bye bye.

 

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Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children. By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel. Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

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How to use the three act structure with Chris Andrews

How to use the three act structure with Chris Andrews

by

How to use the three act structure with Chris Andrews

by Emma Dhesi | Turning Readers Into Writers

How to use the three act structure with Chris Andrews 

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome and here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focused on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com, where you’ll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started.

Before we dive in, this week’s episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write. In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life.

Now you might be thinking that you don’t have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn’t think you had. If you thought writing always involved a pen and paper or a keyboard. Think again.

If you thought you needed at least an hour at a time to write your manuscript. I help you reframe that you won’t be disappointed. Get your free copy of 30 Top Tips to find time to write by going to emmadhesi.com/30TopTips.

Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Chris Andrews is a writer, editor, teacher and mentor.

Having listened to master storytellers all his life, Chris boldly and ignorantly believed that reading great stories transfer the skills to tell great stories. It turns out writing an awesome book is a lot harder than it looks and so a journey of discovery has begun, which won’t end before the universe kicks him off the planet once more.

Being a writer, it’s traditional to have cats, but his dogs thought that was a stupid idea. Chris’s mission is to write stories that matter and be remembered for all the right reasons. So let’s find out a little bit more about Chris and his journey to writing and what he’s writing now and the ways in which he helps other writers get their start.

Well, Chris, thank you so much for being here with me today. I’m delighted to have you on the show.

Chris Andrews  02:41

Thank you for having me. It’s been or not being, It is great. Finally actually meeting you face to face.

Emma Dhesi  02:48

Well, I wonder if you could start off telling us about your journey to writing and what brought you to where you are now.

Chris Andrews  02:55

Yeah, I had a funny entry into writing, I suppose. I was mainly mostly, mostly just a reader. I loved stories. And one day I said to a few mates, I could write a better story than this and they kind of gave me this funny look and then it’s like, Well, why don’t you?

Okay, I will and so I just started giving it a shot and found out that what I thought was easy wasn’t. So I spent a lot of time then trying to figure out how to ride. I went to uni. And then that was fantastic in the sense that I learned a lot about writing in the sense of how to construct sentences, and things like that. It didn’t really teach me how it took a long time after that to, first of all realize that what I was writing was quite clear and legible and understandable, but it wasn’t entertaining.

So I had to go and then figure out how to then entertain, which is an entirely different thing and that took me a couple of years of just researching and you know, listening to podcasts and reading books and all the things that we do and then eventually I put that into a book and publish that. But the reason I did that was because I was doing a lot of manuscript assessments, editing work and what I found was everyone was doing more or less the same things wrong.

And it was really disheartening because people would be paying me quite a lot of money and I’m looking at again, with a little bit of knowledge or insight. You could have quite easily fixed all these problems, got the story to a point where it was really ready for an Edit and then sent it on and got much bit of a for money. Instead, I’m giving you really basic advice.

So That’s, that’s why I write wrote character and structure, I suppose. But that came out of my need to figure out how to write better stories for myself. So that’s, that’s basically my journey from, you know, teenage kid going, Yeah, I can do that to being a full time writer pretty much.

 Emma Dhesi  05:24

I love the fact that it was on there essentially.

 Chris Andrews  05:28

Yeah, more or less, you know, it’s like, well, I can’t back down now can I?

 Emma Dhesi  05:32

Well, now you write across two different series, which are a part of a bigger universe. And you’ve got some standalones as well that you’re writing. So I’m interested to know how you kind of juggle all these different projects and you know, how you decide what you’re going to go into right? at a time or even if you write them all at the same time?

 Chris Andrews  05:59

Right, Well, I actually write them all at the same time, in a lot of ways. But the reason why I do that was because at one point, I landed a publisher. And that was fantastic.

Because I’d landed publisher for this one book that I’ve been writing forever, and over the moon, but I also landed an agent at the same time. And I said to the agent, well, I’ve got four or four other stories that I want to write, and this, that and a bunch of other things and I said, What should I do? Should I finish this series?

Or should I write some other books, she has no, don’t finish the series, in case it takes, if it takes, then you’re not going to be able to you’ve written three or four more books that aren’t going to sell, you’ve just wasted your time. Right, the other stories, get them out there. And then whichever one sticks, and you can obviously pursue that.

So that’s where that’s why I’ve started several series and not yet finished them as yet, I suppose. They’re their works in progress and there’s also several standalones novels, which I’m hoping to get published next.

And then I’m going to get back to the series and finish those and there’s also other series that I’ve written the first book for, for instance. And with with changes in the other parts of the, of the series, I, I can no longer really use them as they are. So they’ll have to be entirely rewritten.

Okay, it is a bit of a hassle. But yeah, it’s worth it in the long run.

Emma Dhesi  07:27

And so, so presumably, you’re not writing all of these books. At the same time, though. You’re you’re writing in one series, then you’re moving to another series? They may be a standalone? Or are you writing three or four books in conjunction with one another?

Chris Andrews  07:43

Kind of yes to both those questions. I have started the the sequels to both the series. But I have, I have an issue with the fact that one of the series would contain spoilers for another one. So I’m a bit hesitant to finish that Yep, until I’ve done the other one.

But I’ve also wrote four standalone novels which are just sitting there, or have been just sitting there and what I figured I might, what I would do is get those published, and then I can move back into the series properly.

One thing I have found, though, that was a little bit of a revelation to me, actually, was the fact that when I had all these different projects that I wanted to do, I kind of got writer’s block, because I was thinking, I want to do that.

And I want to do this, and I want to do the other one and I want to do them all. And I kind of almost did that with you know, the shakes trying to work out which one I wanted to do, and, and I’d end up getting none of it done. So I found that if I made a decision, whether it’s the right decision or the wrong decision, it didn’t matter and made a decision and said, Okay, I’m going to finish this book, and I’m going to get published.

And then once that’s done, I’m going to write this one, and I’m going to finish it and get published, and so on and so forth. It removes an indecision, and it then creates a pathway forward.

You don’t have to, you know, worry about stressing over which one to do, or if you’re going to do a little bit on this one today in a little bit on that one tomorrow. It’s it’s a clear and simple decision and then you just go with it. Okay, looks great.

 

 

 

 

Emma Dhesi  09:29

Yeah, I think Yeah, cool. Okay, that’s an interesting so you’re, you work on one book, then on another, then on another, but skip and moving from series to series two, standalone.

 Chris Andrews  09:41

Potentially yeah, at the moment I’ve just, I’m about to publish a standalone and I’m almost finished writing the first draft and the seconds of a different standalone. And once they’re done, I’ll make a call on which of the other books I’m going to finish and Publish next.

 Emma Dhesi  10:00

Okay. Okay, so now you did mention before we came on, we started recording that the last book that you published was in your mermaid series. So I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about that.

 Chris Andrews  10:12

Yes. Yeah, that was that was a one of those stories, I suppose, where I had an idea it was it was a discovery book, a pure discovery book. It was NaNoWriMo time. And if anyone’s not sure what NaNoWriMo is, it’s National Novel Writing Month when you write a book in a whole month.

And I think it’s 50,000 words of a book or as much as you can do. And everyone else is doing this thing. I thought I’d give it a crack, I had nothing prepared or ready to go. Except I had this one idea and it was a mermaid standing on a beach. Looking for a victim to drown.

That’s all I knew. I didn’t know anything else about this story. Except for this one fact, she wished she had to drown someone, or she was going to die. And so she had this big moral dilemma, because she didn’t want to drown anyone. She’s a nice person, I suppose. But if she didn’t, you know, it was going to be a very bad outcome for her.

So she was trying to find someone that she could actually live with drowning. So she was looking for someone she didn’t like, or someone who was, you know, mean, or nasty. I had no idea what was going to happen next, had no idea. I didn’t know where I was going to go, what was going to be the outcome.

I didn’t even know what the main problem with the story was. I just every day I sat down, wrote another chapter on the next section. And the only thing that got got me through it was the fact that I had a little bit of advice given to me when I’ve done a workshop at some point. And though the advice was, what’s the worst thing that could happen next and I ran with that.

So I would be, I’d write myself into a corner, I have no idea how we’re going to get these characters out, or it start to slow down, I began, oh, gee, it’s getting a bit a bit boring. I need to, you know, switch it up.

And I think what’s the worst thing that could happen and I do that, and then just run with it. And it’s fantastic in the sense that it’s a really fast paced, you know, action kind of orientated to some degree read, but also created a huge mess.

Because I would be in the end I had a lot to clean up had a lot of fix it had no head and it ended up with a pretty good overall story arc. But there was more luck than anything else and still needed so much work and I changed things I it wasn’t even going to be a like a heavy on the supernatural sort of magical creature side. But characters that were human at the start had become other creatures.

Yeah, sort of halfway through and, and I thought, what if I were the what if I were vampires or something else? And so you can imagine that the mess it made doing the discovering writing the scaring the story as I wrote it that way. So that took a lot, a lot of work to clean up and fix and almost didn’t I almost gave up on it. That’s how much work was involved.

But I got there. And it’s, it’s actually a really good right now and thoroughly enjoyed. I’m glad I did it taught me a lot about so it taught me a lot about writing with a bit of a plan, right?

 Emma Dhesi  13:37

Is it good lesson there on you know, not giving up on keeping going because you don’t know what, what the outcome will be and even when you’re kind of in the doldrums of being really hard if you just persist keep going a little bit every day, or a little bit every week, you’ll get there and you don’t know how it’s going to end.

So, you mentioned there that that was purely discovery writing and for the benefit of NaNoWriMo is that your usual writing process or do you generally prefer to have a bit more of a plan before you start?

 

Interview with Chris Andrews

 

Chris Andrews  14:09

Definitely prefer to have a bit more of a plan I am a discovery writer. So that that is my favorite way to write. If I am going to write and you know, thoroughly enjoy it, I need to have some kind of creative process within what I what I’ve written.

But the funny thing is, you probably know this, you got the left brain, right brain type type thing. And one side is creative, I suppose on one sides logical or, to put it another way, one side emotional. And one side is logical and they don’t talk to each other.

These two halves of your brain. So if you’re a discovery writer, you tend to be an emotional writer, which is fantastic because the characters are real to you there. You can just you could sit down, have a chat to them and they would talk back that’s how real they are.

Amazing in that in that regard, but it tends to leave story structure as a mess, quite often you’ll, you go off on tangents or it won’t make sense or logic won’t display at all, it’ll be just trying to think of the right term that that won’t offend people.

But it’s a, it’s a big, it can be a big myth. So you need to understand how story structure works, because the structure is how people interpret your story. If they don’t have that interpretation, they’re not going to understand that the fact that you’re talking about something here and doing something over there are connected necessarily.

So you’ve got to have a really strong structure in order for people to appreciate your story and so what I’ve found is that being a discovery writer, it helps a lot to start with the logical side of things, to at least plan out, if not every, every detail, or the big details, sorry keep down…,

 Emma Dhesi  16:07

So I just going to ask then is that what led you to develop your character and structure workbooks is because you realize that, as a discovery writer, yourself, you needed that little bit more structure.

And so did you is that what kind of prompted you to start these workbook this workbook series?

 Chris Andrews  16:26

Absolutely, yeah. I, I had no idea how well I knew how structure worked in the sense that I’d seen a lot of movies or read a lot of books. And I just thought it just came naturally. Like, you know, if you wrote something, it would just turn out that way.

That’s, that’s how structure work. Apparently not, you actually need to plan these things out. And what I discovered was, there is a, there’s a whole heap of steps or not so much steps, but story points that people expect in a story and if you don’t give them to them, they’re going to wonder about the so they’re, they’re going to think that something is missing, or not quite right.

They may not know what it is, they may not understand that there’s something wrong with the story. But they will know it, and you’ll end up losing readers or it’ll fall over in some other way.

So that was where the book came from, I guess, from my research into how story and structure work together. And then I the other part was, I was doing a lot of manuscript assessments. And people were making same mistakes I was making, and I was simple to fix.

But it was kind of a case of where is this information, I couldn’t find it in a single place at all. And I know there are script writing books, which tend to do this a lot better than novel writing books.

But I couldn’t find anything that gave me a clear pathway from one end of the story to another. And I cobbled all of these little all these little bits of information together through podcasts and, and reading books and listening to other writers talk and all sorts of stuff.

And I eventually got to the point where I was able to create my own map. And so I created this map, and I put it on my website. So if anyone wants to grab a copy of it, it’s there.

And from that grew character and structure, which I think it should be compulsory reading for everyone who wants to read a story, that’s a writer story, it’s, it’s, you got to have structure, and you’ve got to know how characters work with that structure. Otherwise, your story is not going to work.

 Emma Dhesi  18:52

So and I know that in conjunction with the books, you also teach workshops on this, I wonder if you could give our listeners a little flavor of and your approach to structure and how you teach it.

 Chris Andrews  19:05

I’m a little bit out of the game at the moment, thanks to COVID there’s been nothing happening for the last last year and a half year and a half. But that depends on on what people are looking for.

I guess I’ve done workshops where the six week workshops at that the local, I don’t know if you haven’t tapes, technical and further education centers, like a college or not a uni but not a university, but a sort of somewhere between high school and university where people can go and do that.

So they had to have night courses there. I’ve done them at you know, major conventions.

I’ve done them for writers workshops down at like little country areas, and then everything in between and mentoring and things like that. So depending on what what people are, after all, if it’s a structured course, like over a six week course, I’ll Playing that out in a lot of detail. And every every night safe, it’d be a two hour night, and I would cover certain topics would be a first half and a second half.

And then people would have potentially homework or some idea of what to go on with, after each session. If it’s, if it’s something else entirely, like, I might be engaged to just do a workshop for a group at a convention.

So I might be sitting in a, in a stadium with 1000 people or 30 people or whatever. And there’ll be a topic, and it’ll be just on that topic and won’t be necessarily everything I know, you just need this card. But it would be potentially they might say, okay, we need to know about theme.

So can you do a workshop, so I’ll do a workshop on theme. And theme is amazingly interesting. It is. When I when I first heard about theme I thought it was a case of it’s about romance, or it’s about hope, or something along those lines would be a single word that you would associate with your story, it turns out theme is not that at all, that’s kind of like a motive of a theme. theme is actually a question or a statement. And it comes from the heart.

So if we if, for instance, you have an issue with a topic, or you want to explore something like racism, or religion, or you know, the history of slavery, you could create a theme out of that, for instance, now God is great, and they have a theme there.

So your your story would then argue that thing, or all men are bastards, is is another one that you might sort of look at and go, Well, how can I demonstrate that all men are bastards, or the opposite? And so your story would then answer that question or that statement by the end of it.

But without being over overly, you know, you don’t hit people over the head with it, you want to be subtle. You’ve got to demonstrate this working. That that’s kind of our theme works. But that’s just one aspect of of a story and there’s so many options that I could talk about tonight, it’s crazy.

 

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Emma Dhesi  22:30

That stories need a theme is that something that you think is an important aspect of storytelling.

 Chris Andrews  22:36

I think they can benefit a lot from having a theme. I don’t know that you absolutely have to have one depends on the story. They do tend to resonate better, and will have a greater emotional engagement with with your audience if they have one.

But if you look at something like like a particular genres will tend to be stronger in in theme than others. Like, if you watch an action movie, you’d be lucky if you could spot a theme, you know, 1000 miles away, that you go in yet you’re there to have fun, you’re not there to come, it will come away thinking about oh my gosh, that was so deep and meaningful. It was, you know, an action movie.

They could be some themes in there. But it’s not really a big component of that kind of genre. But on the whole, yes, I think you do need a theme to really resonate with, you know, your audience.

 Emma Dhesi  23:37

Now I wonder if I could just look back a little bit and just back to structure. And because I’d like to know, how you teach structure. So do you follow a three act structure? Do you use the the hero’s journey?

Or do you use something in between or a mixture of all what’s your approach to structure that you’ve that you’ve put in your workbooks? So, alright, so he’s pointing to short structure diagram. Okay, so can you tell us about that,

 Chris Andrews  24:03

That’s what that’s Um, there’s a story structure diagram on my website. So you can you can look at that. But basically, what it is, is it’s a 3X structure broken up into four parts. So every 3x structure should have four parts, the beginning and middle and an end, the middle is divided into two parts.

So effectively, it’s 25% H. So the beginning is a quarter of the story. The middle is two quarters, and the end is one quarter. So that’s, that’s kind of it as a kind of a, an overview of how structure works. But then, for instance, the first quarter that the beginning, the story hasn’t even started at that point.

That’s that’s the setup. So the story doesn’t start until about the 25% marked When, like if Frank’s incentive, you’re writing a murder mystery. In the beginning, that’s good. It’ll be a murder and a mystery.

And there’ll be some kind of investigation starts and, and that sort of stuff, you know, cops will turn up and look at the body and go well, that doesn’t look like it’s natural causes and they’ll then obviously, you know, start to investigate.

And once I start to investigate, that’s when the story starts. And the same with the romances you get the same thing with the romance or epic fantasy, doesn’t matter what the genre is, you have the same kind of structure, there is this beginning part, which doesn’t, it’s not where the story starts. It’s the setup, and then the adventure begins.

So that sets the next quarter. So that’s quite, that’s kind of the fun part. If, for example, we’re talking about the, you know, the cops investigating the murder, they’re out there interviewing people, they’re there, they’re learning about the story well, they’re learning about who these people are, that may have committed this murder.

If it’s a romance, that, you know, the two people are kind of starting to date, but they’re not really dating and so they kind of figuring out how that relationship is going to go. Usually a lot of fun.

And then the third quarter is where things get more serious and that kind of, it changes the tone. So the protagonist generally becomes more proactive in the second half. Now, that’s part of that, that that tonal change.

And there’s also several major points in that part where the old is last moment and the darkest hour, the ones one, the physical sort of type thing, the other ones in emotional, the emotional side of that. So the all is lost would be Oh, my God, we’ve just broken up, or they’ve caught the killer, and they’ve got away on a technicality. And then the darkest hour would be the the emotional fallout from that.

And the characters kind of trying to cope, I guess, or figure out some, you know, wait way to get through it. And then of course, it’s a false victory defeat part of that. So it’s a set, it’s a lot more serious.

Then finally, there’s the resolution, which, you know, if it’s an action movie, it’s the two big muscle men or you know, Ninja warriors, or whoever going head to head, if it’s a romance, it’s your, they’ve usually broken up by this point, now they’ve got to figure out how they can get back together.

If it’s a any other genre, like a little talk about a crime, they will have probably lost the, the initial means of catching the killer, and now they’ve got to find something else. So they, they come up with some other idea, and they end up usually end up winning and that’s kind of how all stories work. Doesn’t matter what genre you’re in. It’s, it’s very, very similar.

They all kind of go through the same. I don’t like using points or steps. But these things are what your audience will expect. They’ll expect you to hit certain marks in a certain order and that’s, that’s kind of what structure does.

 Emma Dhesi  28:19

Yeah. Yeah. I like that one, it’s, I find it to be the most flexible, so you can use almost any story to it. And you can, you can plot it as much as you want.

If you’re someone who likes reports, and then if you’re like me, and you just more discovery writers, you can leave it as loose as you want it to be as well as reflects.

 Chris Andrews  28:38

Yeah, yeah. then I just, I just, I like to hit the big points and haven’t have an idea of where they’re gonna go. And then I like to fill in kind of the gaps. But that that’s, that’s my process.

A lot of other writers, I know, writers that need to know that the kind of moss on the backside of the of the, you know, broken, you know, burned down house, in the middle of the woods where nobody’s ever going to know about it. But they need to know, they need to know that kind of detail. And, to me, that’s kind of just this crazy, get on with the story.

But they need to know that stuff and other people, you know, kind of, I suppose more towards my side or that the approach, all they need is just the start of an idea. And off, they go on it.

And they’re happy with that too. It just does take more work in the back end, I suppose to the fixed size sort of things. So the more work you do up front, the easier it is to write and the easier it is to edit and fix up. But you tend to put a lot of that creativity into the front part of it. Whereas discovery writers tend to put that same creativity into the story as I go.

So, yeah and all those stellar story points I’ve just talked about. I’ve got examples in my in my book, from everything from Pretty Woman to kids. movies to Twilight even.

And they all and the funny thing is Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, you would look at a movie like that. And you go well, that’s, that doesn’t really work structurally. But then you look at it and you break it down again, actually, this is amazing, well structured.

It works perfectly, and that the funny thing is you’d look at it. It’s Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. It’s his story. But when you look at it, it’s not his story at all. He’s like, he’s like the Road Runner or bugs.

But he’s Bugs Bunny. Basically, he’s a guy that causes all the trouble and it gets people into stuff. It’s actually Cameron story. So yeah, he does this. Look at that. It’s amazing what you see when you start to understand how structure works.

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Emma Dhesi  30:50

Well, thank you for that. That was a great kind of overview of the different points that we need to be thinking about and there’s different beats almost that we need to hit if we’re wanting to structure our story well, so thank you for that.

What are you writing at the moment what’s what’s on your your hitless at the moment?

 Chris Andrews  31:09

I like to keep things a little bit different of I’m about to publish a story sitting in Canberra, we’re up near where I live. It’s kind of like a turf war between the North and South cameras, a camera, the funny, funny town in the sense that you tend to belong to the north of the south side of it.

And there’s this kind of invisible dividing line, which is, like, for instance, the people on North Side, refer to the south side, as you know, people who live on the dark side. I don’t know why maybe it’s for their further south, I guess. But so I thought that was a great setup.

So I’ve created a story about that about a guy who’s, and I write fantasy. So he is several 100 years old, he comes to camera to meet someone, and then realizes that his wife, who he thought he’d actually buried 300 years ago was all there abouts was alive and in Canberra and on one of these, on part new part of this turf, which is on the on the north side of town. And, and so in the process, it’s sort of a little bit of a healing story, because he’s, he’s never really got over this.

And then he ends up meeting a saving a girl who, who then becomes his emotional support, I guess, or his big part of his story. And to be honest, she, she almost steals the show, she pretty much does steal the show, actually. So yeah. So there’s that one.

And then I’ve just started another one sitting in Las Vegas, which is it’s a romance. So it’s a cop there meets, or he’s trying to catch a bad guy, and ends up having to work for him. And more or less falls in love with him.

And it’s a very different story very different time. And again, it’s a better standalone, but they’re all sitting in the same story universe that’s called the veil of gods.

So it’s, it’s part it’s part of this overall umbrella stories, which is, funnily enough set, both here in in the in the on earth, and in another universe and there’ll be crossovers, and like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I guess, is stuff going on everywhere all over the place and that all kind of ties in together nicely the end.

 Emma Dhesi  33:37

Sounds like lots of fun and lots of kind of scope for different types. Yeah.

 Chris Andrews  33:44

Yeah. that’s fun coming up with different creatures as well. So sorry, keep going. Yeah.

 Emma Dhesi  33:49

So I was just going to ask a, you know, conscious of time and and I was wanting to know, where can our listeners find out more about you and your work?

 Chris Andrews  33:57

Probably the best place would be my website, which is chrisandrews.me

Nice and easy.

 Emma Dhesi  34:03

Brilliant. That’s lovely. Well, Chris, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

 Chris Andrews  34:08

Thank you so much for having me. I’m looking forward to listening to a few more of your podcasts and think this one comes out.

 Emma Dhesi  34:17

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational.

Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, turning readers into writers. It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel. If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called three secret hacks to write with consistency.

So go to emmadhesi.com/turning readers into writers.

Hit join. I can’t wait to see you in there.

All right. Thank you. Bye bye.

 

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Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children. By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel. Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

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Simple Story Structure with Lisa Lilly

Simple Story Structure with Lisa Lilly

by

Simple Story Structure with Lisa Lilly

by Emma Dhesi | Turning Readers Into Writers

Interview with Lisa Lilly

An author, attorney and adjunct professor of law, L M. Lilly founded writing as a second career to share her information with people juggling writing novels with working at other jobs or careers.

She has written and published multiple books on writing craft, including super simple story structure, a quick guide to plotting and writing your novel and creating compelling characters from the inside out.

Writing as Lisa M. Lilly She is the author of the QC Davis mysteries, and the best selling for book awakening supernatural thriller series. She also hosts the podcast, Buffy and the Art of Story. So let’s delve into finding out more about the two series and Buffy and the art of story.

Well, welcome, Lisa, I am so thrilled to have you on the show. Thank you very, very much for being here. 

Lisa Lilly  02:43

Oh, I’m so excited to be here. 

Emma Dhesi  02:46

Now, one of the things I often ask my guests is, you know, what was your journey to fiction? So I’m, I’m curious how you made? You know, because often for us, it’s a bit of a meandering route. And so I’m wondering what brought you to the world of fiction? 

Lisa Lilly  03:00

Yeah, there was definitely some zigzagging, I started writing when I was very little, just because I love to read. So I started writing stories. And I scribbled out novels. When I was in sixth grade, I had a friend, we would trade our novel chapters, but I didn’t finish anything.

And then in college is really when I focused on it more, I was struggling for major took a bunch of accounting classes, which have come in handy later. But when I looked at a major, I found this school that had a writing program. And at the time, I wasn’t thinking career so much as Oh, they’ll give me a degree for writing awesome.

So I did that. And I wrote finished my first novel a year after I got out of college, I wrote a number of them and this was back when your options, there really were no options to put your work out there directly.

So I kept trying to get agents and get publishers and I was making progress in terms of getting more personal letters, getting letters saying, Oh, this is so close, send me your next novel.

And at some point, I decided to go to law school. I had been working as a paralegal and I really liked it. I liked what the attorneys seem to be doing even better. And so I went to law school, I went at night, so I was pretty much working or in school or studying all the time. So I did not write fiction.

Then I wrote some poems, I wrote a bunch of poems. And then after that, I was always writing on the side. So I continued, I was never I almost see it as a I couldn’t like I tried to stop. My first year as a lawyer. I thought it’s enough. Just Just don’t, you know, don’t try to write a novel just too It’s too much and I really missed it.

And I discovered I had actually written about 90 pages during that year Just here and there. So that’s when I started deliberately making specific time to write despite that, I worked a lot of hours.

And it took quite some time, but about I had been practicing about eight or nine years when I self published my first book, and then I have been writing and publishing novels ever since. 

Emma Dhesi  05:13

It’s interesting, isn’t it? It’s, I think, for many creative people, even if, I mean, I’ve never worked in the law, but I imagine it’s, it’s very much based. In fact, it’s got to be very precise.

There is rules to all you know, and then having that option, even if it’s just every now and again, to kind of break free from that and be creative and spill things down on the page or, or paint, you know, paint if you’re an artist.

But there is something about being creative and using that part of the brain that drives us. And as you say, we don’t necessarily know why.

Lisa Lilly  05:47

Yeah, I had people ask me because my law practice involves a lot of writing. It’s it’s a kind of practice where a lot of things are decided on what we write and submit to the court. And people would ask me, well, how can you sit down then go home, you work in 11 hour day and six days a week, go home and write.

But it’s it is it’s the skills crossover a little but it’s a different kind of frightening and it felt very, almost restoring and, and freeing to me that I used to take what I called writing vacations, where I’d take a week off, I wouldn’t go anywhere, and I would just write my novel and it did not feel like work.

It felt fun and creative in a different way. And you bright part of it is I do like to structure my stories, I think a lot about plot, but it is such a more free form creative area than in a different way and more relaxed to me kind of creativity than all the very specific rules and deadlines you have to follow in law. 

Emma Dhesi  06:53

I can imagine it’s a bit of a palate cleanser for your….

Lisa Lilly  06:56

Yes. Yeah, very much. So yeah.

Emma Dhesi  06:59

you mentioned overlap there. And indeed, with your QC Davis mysteries, I think there is a bit of an overlap between the fiction and the legal world. I wonder if you tell us about that series, and where you got the idea from? 

Lisa Lilly  07:12

That series. So you’re right, the main character, although she is kind of an amateur sleuth, she solves crimes, but she also is a lawyer. She’s a lawyer who used to be a child stage actress.

So I drew a little from my life, I was never a child stage actress, I did a little bit of community theater, but that idea of balancing your work and having this creative side of you, and then for her now it’s fitting in her law practice and then investigating these crimes and how you juggle that there isn’t a ton about that.

But there’s a little and I’m sure that I didn’t think about it that way. But the more I write them, the more I realized that is part I do draw for my life for that. I did not I started that series in 2018.

And that was at a point where I had really scaled back my law practice, it was very, very part time. Now I don’t run my own firm anymore. I work with someone else. And I feel like that opened up space for me to have a character who was a lawyer.

Before that people would say to me, why don’t you write legal thrillers or why don’t you use your law practice. And my thought was, I’m spending 60 hours a week on this already, I don’t want to sit down and write about a fictional lawyer.

But once I was not as immersed I now I enjoy drawing on that background. And it gives me a chance it’s a first person. So here and there.

I do admit that my character quills commentary may resemble some of my thoughts about the profession, mostly positive, but it’s kind of fun to be able to play with that a little bit. 

Emma Dhesi  08:54

And so the mysteries that she solves, are they also based on kind of real life experience and things that you might have worked on as well?

Lisa Lilly  09:04

They come some of the ideas are sparked by that none of them are directly from an experience I had. But for example, in the first book, the question is quill begins investigating because and this happens in the first chapter, so no spoilers.

This man she’s been seeing. She’s very close with him. It’s been a very fast romance, and she finds him dead in the apartment they were going to move into and the question is the police think it’s suicide.

And she is not convinced partly because she knew him and his son doesn’t believe that his father would ever do that. But also as a side issue, he has this life insurance policy and and I happen to know from my practice, they don’t pay out.

Most of them have what’s called a suicide clause and they won’t pay out if you commit suicide within X amount of years. Her boyfriend is someone who is former doctor working in the insurance industry.

So she knows he knows that and she knows he wouldn’t have left his son, basically, he would not have left his son with nothing. So it isn’t a huge part of the story because no one wants to read about insurance.

But it’s it’s a small factor in why she is so convinced that in addition to the personal aspect, and it’s one of the things she uses to tell other people because they’re like, well, you haven’t known him that long.

And of course, his son doesn’t think he would do this. So it’s it’s partly her wedge to say no, but look at this issue. Like he is not someone who would leave his son without any means to support himself. 

Emma Dhesi  10:45

So yes, you’re able to use your existing knowledge and kind of throw it into the background of a story and help it move along nicely. 

Lisa Lilly  10:52

Yeah, and I do I try to keep it very background. But yeah, it sparks the idea. And then it went all kinds of other directions. But it was this little grain that caught me thinking about Oh, wait, what if somebody died? And there was this this issue? Which is it murder suicide? And and how do you convince people? 

Emma Dhesi  11:14

Now, I think there’s three in the series. Is that right? 

Lisa Lilly  11:17

I just released the fourth in December. So and they’re all it’s the worried man, the charming man, the fractured man and the troubled man. So that’s the branding and part of my idea for it. I love to read thrillers and mysteries, but I got tired of women are always the victims, not always.

But there are so many that focus on women as victims and many of the thrillers, because you are seeing through the antagonists point of view, you’re seeing women being terrorized.

And I just I got tired of that. And so I wanted to flip it. And my character my main character, obviously she’s a woman, it’s first person so we’re not seeing from the villains point of view, but also not always, but in my books, it is more often men and women who are the victims and I try to make it more most this I did learn from my law practice most victims of murder. If it is someone they know and it is if it’s a man killer, it’s an A stranger violence.

It’s usually men against men. It’s not it’s very over represented in the thriller. genre.

The how often women get killed by strangers, like usually it’s someone personal. So most of my all of my mysteries pretty much center on personal stories personal it’s somebody they knew. 

Emma Dhesi  12:50

Okay. That’s interesting. I didn’t know I didn’t know that about the being killed by a stranger that is usually male to male. Oh, that’s interesting. 

Lisa Lilly  12:58

Yeah, the vast, I mean, it’s sad. But the biggest danger to women, statistically, is the men they live with and or fall, you know, or are close to our close family with or are involved with.

And it Yeah, and I feel like it’s the as much as I love thrillers, it started to bother me that this message was, Oh, you’ve got to be so careful what you do and where you go, which of course we all are.

But it just seems so outsized, and I got tired of reading it. So I thought, I’m gonna write what I want to write. What I want to read 

Emma Dhesi  13:30

Its great that you redressing the balance there, because I think I’ve heard that sort of commentary from a number of particularly women, Thriller writers, crime writers who Yeah, as you say, kind of fed up seeing as always women who are the victim of some horrible crime.

So it’s nice to see the violence being redressed a bit and that it happens worldwide to everybody. 

Lisa Lilly  13:49

Yeah, yeah. 

Emma Dhesi  13:51

Well, that’s a good thing. But you know what I mean? 

Lisa Lilly  13:53

Right, right. Not that we want more men to be to be victims. 

Emma Dhesi  13:58

So we were talking before we started recording, we were still talking a little bit about the marketing of books, because we’ll come on in a second to talk about your other series, which is fits firmly within the thriller genre.

But we were talking about your QC Davis mysteries and where they fit because this is something that is affects all of us writers, whether we’re published yet or to be published, we need to figure out where we fit.

And so I was asking you about your the series, is it a Cozy Mystery, but you were explaining to me the nuances between cozy and where, where the deepest mysteries fit. I wonder if you could kind of share that with our listeners. 

Lisa Lilly  14:37

Yes, it when I started marketing them. I really went too broad because and I think we’re all as authors, we want to say, oh, everyone will love my book. And I was that broad, but I have mysteries and thrillers.

So I just want to draw on mystery and thriller writers and gradually through reviews, I discovered a lot of people who like cozy mysteries? I really like this series. I had someone on Twitter tweet me and say, Oh, my mom loved your QC Davis mysteries.

They’re a little darker than the cozy she usually reads but she’s so happy that there’s no graphic sex and little swearing and no on screen violence violins and those are the things that make something a cozy but as I was telling you usually in cozy people are also looking for something a little more kind of cute and lighthearted. There’s a cat solving the mystery or it’s a knitting circle or something like that, and the books don’t have that.

So it took me about three books before I honed in on the categories, particularly on Amazon, but also I want to say Kobo as well. They have amateur sleuth categories. In fact, a reader suggested that to me, she said I think your books would fit in amateur sleuth, traditional detective, so people who like this sort of British detective mysteries and the Sherlock Holmes and mine are a little more character driven, but they those people tend to really love it.

It’s really enjoy the characters follow the clues unravel the mystery and as a result with my fourth book, I’ve, I got a review from Windy City reviews.

And it’s the best review I’ve ever gotten in my life like I was so thrilled that the reviewer actually mentioned Louise Penny, who I love in the review as another author whose book she loved and Jo nesbo.

And I thought, yeah, this is I, I found my target reader. She’s someone who loves detective novels, who loves the unraveling the clues, and it was clear, I had found the target reader. So it only took me you know, three years and four books to to narrow it down it not that I wasn’t reaching any readers before that.

But I kept sort of looking through those reviews and seeing Oh, if someone doesn’t like it, what else did they read? If they do love it? What else do they read? And what words do they use to describe it. 

Super simple story structure with Lisa M. Lilly.

Emma Dhesi  17:09

But I think that’s a fantastic example of how it’s an ever evolving thing, being a writer, we don’t get it all, especially as Indians, we don’t get it, we don’t understand every facet of the publishing space away.

It takes us a bit of time to find what we love to write, where our readers are, how to express what the kind of book is, and the story is and, and even those other things like writing the correct blurb so that it engages a user, and then the color Of course, all these things are trial and error.

And so I think that’s a really great sort of message for everybody that, you know, you’re doing very, very well.

But it’s, it’s again, it’s trial and error and finding finding the way forward. So thank you very much for sharing that with us. That’s great. 

Lisa Lilly  17:55

I’m glad you mentioned. Oh, I’m sorry. If I was to say I’m glad you mentioned the blurbs because yeah, at first I was writing them more like thriller blurbs. And I used a book description service for the first book too.

And I went to look back and looked at the language that they used. That improved it and it included language that went more toward the detective, you know, follow the clues unravel the lies.

And I thought, oh, clever, amateur sleuth. And I thought Oh, okay. Yeah. If you’re presenting your book as a thriller, people expect a thriller. So it is yeah, it is good to always kind of look back if your sales are not where you hoped or your reviews are not what you hoped.

See if you can figure out maybe your blurb is targeting is just needs to be tweaked a little. 

Emma Dhesi  18:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’m still doing that myself. I’m still figuring it all out. 

Lisa Lilly  18:50

I don’t think it’s ever finished.

Emma Dhesi  18:53

So let’s move on to your other series, which does fit very clearly within the supernatural thriller and so tell us a bit more about that series as well. 

Lisa Lilly  19:03

Yeah, that one I. So I used to read a ton of horror and not not like not slasher or gory, but the kind of what I think of as quiet horror. And I was a huge fan of the book, Rosemary’s Baby, which now is is quite old, but a classic.

And then the Do you remember the book that Da Vinci Code with? There was such a huge interest in that and whenever I talk to women about it, they would say part of what fascinated them was this alternate view of the Christian religion of how in the book or in the books the feminine side of God had been sort of removed.

So part of that background plotline it’s is that there was this femininity here and I started thinking What would happen if you brought those things together the Rosemary’s Baby idea and this idea of the Divine Feminine so by the awakening series started as kind of a cross between Rosemary’s Baby and the Da Vinci Code and you have this young woman who’s in college and she’s discovered she’s pregnant, and she has never had sex, not for religious reasons for very practical ones and there is this one this like religious cult of these powerful men who think, Oh, this is going to change the world.

This is going to trigger the apocalypse. And then you have other all these people telling her what it means. And it focuses on her discovering what does this mean? What is her role is her child about saving the world, destroying the world evil good, really explores all those things, but in the context of this one is definitely a thriller very fast paced, and I just it, I had so much fun with it.

And it also was such a compelling idea to me, essentially, I thought, what would happen if a young woman today found herself pregnant couldn’t explain it? What would her boyfriend say? What would her family say?

And then what happens when all these other forces come in convinced that it means one thing or another, she’s evil, she’s amazing. She’s gonna save the world. It’s the end of the world. 

Emma Dhesi  21:25

Interesting premise there. And I love that you’ve done what Stephen King and other horror writer says he always says to me, you know, when he’s coming up with his ideas, it’s what if I put this with that what would happen? If, and so you’ve kind of malga mated these two to come up with this amazing series. sounds quite what’s the word I’m looking for?

And, you know, big and scope kind of not just one man trying to survive but actually kind of a global what could be a global impact with the 

Lisa Lilly  21:58

Yeah, very like, be you know, faded the worlds kind of, which is probably why it ended up taking for books to finish that the story and people sometimes readers will ask me, will I write anymore, but it really, maybe at some point, it’ll occur to me something else I could do with it.

But I I felt like it really was this story arc and at some point you have, I think you have to resolve that and not just kind of keep stringing it along. 

Emma Dhesi  22:27

So to, to add kind of mystery genres, there are two different series as but very different kind of feels to them. Is there an overlap in terms of how you approach because you mentioned there that you, you plot? Is there a difference in what’s expected in terms of how you plot the story, you know, is there so in a thriller is sort in a Cozy Mystery or an amateur sleuth?

Like in a thriller do have that inciting incident really close up up front? And it’s very dramatic? And it sets kind of like you need the body up front from that one as well. or other? New Where are the overlaps of the two? And where do they differ? I guess it’s my question. 

Lisa Lilly  23:13

Yes, there are definitely overlaps. And you’re right, the inciting incident. And this is partly my own, I used to joke if if somebody doesn’t die on page one, I don’t want to read the book.

Because Because when I was in law school, and as a lawyer, I had to plow through so much. There’s so much difficult reading involved. So when I want to read for fun, I want it to grab me immediately. I don’t literally put a dead body on page one.

But yes, in both of those, I think you need your inciting incident very early, because that or at least something that tells the reader that it’s coming and that is a much faster shot than a lot of books and there’s also overlap, I generally use the same plot structure to start with where I look at how it starts, I look at the major plot turns, I tried to do a really strong midpoint of the story.

The differences are more in in pacing. So with thriller may mess move much quicker, you have much bigger, more dramatic things happening almost at the end of every chapter. In any book, it’s good to have a hook at the end of every chapter, but they’re kind of much bigger.

So when the awakening series is used, that it’s almost a global story. So everything is there’s more in the way of explosions and secret meetings and somebody disappears and someone gets kidnapped and it’s there’s much more of that were in the QC Davis mysteries.

It’s a little bit more step by step you still have these major turns at the same places, but in between one reviewer described it as you know quill peeling back delicate layers to find the truth which Yeah, is not in the awakening series that that is not going to work.

You know, we need a car chase here and there. But also similar in that I do I feel like both I really go into the characters, they’re still very character based, but the thriller series much quicker and nothing supernatural in the QC mysteries. 

Emma Dhesi  25:21

Okay, interesting. So I’m going to change tack just a little bit, because I know that as well as writing your own fiction, you help others do the same. And one of the ways you do that is with your podcast, you have a podcast called Buffy and the art of story.

So I’m taking it, you’re a big Buffy fan. And that’s where that idea came from. 

Lisa Lilly  25:43

Yes, I am a huge Buffy fan. I watched it when it when it came out. And then I was thrilled when this is old technology now, but when DVDs became available, and that’s the first time I truly saw how the show told this season long story arc, which was more like a novel.

And that was very new. At that point, it may have been the first show that did that TV used to be much more episodic. So I found it so much more interesting. And I have probably watched the whole series here at least a dozen times.

There’s always something new in it. And I also I learned so much about writing from it. So a cutting edge to 2019. I was thinking about I really wanted to do a podcast. And I listened to a lot of writing podcasts like yours, a number of other ones, their creative pen.

And I thought what what do I have to add to this? There’s so many voices out there. And I thought, Oh, I love Buffy.

And I can use that. So what I do is watch every episode of Buffy and break it down from a story perspective, looking at the major plot points, how the characters develop the themes and how those are conveyed? Does it work?

Does it not the pace, both on an individual basis and then I do a little spoiler for shattering section in case there’s anyone out there who hasn’t seen all of it? and talk about how does this episode relate to the bigger story arc of the season or this series.

 

Emma Dhesi  27:18

You’ll be horrified to hear that I’ve never watched Buffy kind of bypassed me a bit. So maybe this is my opportunity to go back and watch them and have the study notes with your podcast as my study notes beside it. And watch how the how they crafted the story so…

Lisa Lilly  27:34

Yeah, and see and you won’t have to worry about spoilers.

Emma Dhesi  27:41

So not only do you have podcasts, but you also have a website called writing as a second career. And so what prompted you to develop that particular side of your writing life as well.

Lisa Lilly  27:53

I went to a few in person indie author conferences, when independent or self publishing was somewhat new, and I went attended some video conferences. And they were extremely helpful.

And at the same time as someone who had been in the legal field and a professional for most of my life even before that, yeah, when I was a paralegal, I went to work, I had to wear a suit. I for me, I had to kind of get past that this was a different world because to me, when you go to a conference, you should everyone should be dressed well, and you know, look, look professional in what in my mind was professional.

So I had to kind of work past Oh, I’m watching this video with this guy and a T shirt that’s kind of pulled out a shape. And it looks like he’s sitting in his parents basement. And my initial reaction was, which shows how we judge people, but certainly in court and stuff. That is how people end up being judged.

And I think well, what can this person had to tell me and then I’d take a breath and listen, and I learned so much. So some of my thought was one to create something for people who maybe they’re coming to this space, and they want to talk to or hear from someone who is managing another career or another job also particularly, that’s sort of the optics of it.

But the time issue, you and I were talking about making time to write. And if you’re going to publish your own work, or even if someone else publishes it time to market, how do you juggle all that?

How do you fit all that in because most writers, even some of the ones you see on the bookshelves all the time are still working at some other job, or maybe they’re caring for children, and they have to fit in their writing here and there, which is essentially for years I would write in 15 minute bursts or I’m sitting at court and I’m scribbling in my notebook while I wait for my case to be called.

So I wanted to address that and it seemed to me there was so much out there.

That wasn’t really hitting that market. So I would get, I still get calls from other lawyers or referrals from friends of friends saying, Oh, I have this friend who’s a lawyer or an accountant or an insurance adjuster, and they’re writing a book and they want to talk to someone of how do you manage this?

So that’s a very long answer. But that was the inspiration for it. 

Emma Dhesi  30:21

It’s a good question. Because you know, you you still, although you said it’s part time you still practice and teach law.

You’re doing your own writing, you’re doing the podcast, you’re doing the website and coaching. How do you fit all in? The so how do you? 

Lisa Lilly  30:36

It’s it’s definitely tricky. I do a lot of each week, I try to sit down and I look ahead and schedule my time, my time and I, I try to keep certain hours, like Monday through Friday, I try to make at least three hours each morning writing.

So whether it’s writing fiction, or writing a nonfiction book, those are my writing hours. So the week before, I’ll figure out, Okay, what am I working on that week, and then I’ll have certain hours that are marketing, the podcast takes a lot of time. So I know there are certain big chunks that I have to fit in, and then I’ll have what are the smaller things to do to fit in between.

And then I also which I think is more key, I do for the year, what I think I would like what I would like to accomplish my goals. And then every couple months, I sit down and say okay, for the next two months, what were How am I going to make progress on this is it I’m going to get a first draft of the novel done.

I’m going to release X amount of podcast episodes. And usually I don’t get everything done. So it’s it’s very aspirational. But it really helps keep me on track. And I try to really stick with that.

Because otherwise I have found I look back and I’ve been very, very busy. But I can’t always it’s sometimes hard to see. Yeah, what what I’ve accomplished. Usually I have accomplished things, but maybe it’s not the ones that were the most important.

Yeah. So I feel like the priority is the big thing. What is what is the main thing I want to do that particular month or that particular week?

Emma Dhesi  32:18

 I love that you’ve said that because being busy and being productive are two very different things. I have to catch myself as well and Emma just being busy.

Lisa Lilly  32:28

Oh, yeah, it took me a long time, partly because in my legal career, most of my work when the deadlines are imposed from outside, so it tells me what the priorities are I that isn’t really my choice.

And then I generally get paid by the hour. So as long as I am making progress, being busy generally is being productive, because I’m getting those things done and going forward. And I know what I have to do.

And yeah, it took a long time to make that connection of Oh, just because I worked eight hours today. I may have spent a lot of it on things that sure they’re sort of helpful, but not not the ones that really matter.

Yeah. So I think that is a huge thing, especially when you have limited time, if you have half an hour, where is that going to do the most for you? And then what do you enjoy? That’s important as well, that basically.

Emma Dhesi  33:26

Yeah, it’s got to be fun. You mustn’t forget about that. Now, you mentioned just before your nonfiction books, which I haven’t yet asked you about. So could you tell our listeners a little bit about those as well. 

Lisa Lilly  33:38

I started the first one super simple story structure. Initially, I was writing it as a free download for the website for people to join my email list, but it ended up being a book.

So now what you can get is, is the worksheets that go with it free. And it it’s a relatively short book, but it’s aimed at that sort of in between plotting and winging it or discovery writing or pantsing.

So it’s a very loose structure where you pick out the the inciting incident the major plot points. And then if you’re someone who likes to wing it, you might just write from there, but you at least know where you’re going. It especially focuses on the middle of the book where a lot of writers struggle, how to make that very strong.

And if you’re more of an outliner I, I usually will do a little bit of outlining in between each of those plot points. But if you don’t have to, so it’s a nice in between and I found that it really resonated with people. We were talking about marketing on the fiction side, you’re doing all this to try to get people to see your book.

In the beginning I didn’t do anything and marketed I just put it up there and and people started buying it and commenting on it and emailing me so then I expanded I did one Under the books is is very much timing.

It’s called the one year novelist. So it is how do you fit that in, if you want to write a novel in a year, you can expand it or contract it, but it’s almost a schedule that walks you through and kind of encourages you to do that.

And then I have one on character, I have a book for sixth through eighth graders, that’s essentially how to write a novel following that same structure, but on a more examples that are more relevant for that age group, because I always use examples of movies or books so that you can see how these things work.

So that that’s the core of it. And my next book I’m hoping to do will be a more overall book on writer’s block and getting you know, getting yourself writing and keeping yourself writing.

From time to time, I link to products or services I love using with affiliate links. This means that I may receive a small percentage or fee for referring you to any product you may purchase from one of those sites. It does not cost you anything. These small fees help sustain my small business. I truly appreciate your support.

Emma Dhesi  35:49

Well, that leads me nicely into my next question, which is also are you working on at the moment? Are you doing both fiction and nonfiction or concentrating on the nonfiction at the moment? 

Lisa Lilly  35:59

I usually alternate. So I, I’ll finish a draft of a novel and then I’ll work on let it sit and work on a nonfiction book. And then I’ll come back revise, so I’ll go between them so that each one get some time to sit.

So right now, I am just finishing a novella in the QC Davis mystery series, which will be for my email list subscribers, I wanted to do something really of substance for them. And then yes, I plan to work on that writer’s block book.

And I also do the Buffy in the art of story podcast, you can read. I’ve compiled that into books as well. So there’s one available for season one.

There’s one for the first half of season two, because it’s much longer and so that will be the next project is getting that second half of season two out there. 

Emma Dhesi  36:52

The idea yeah, so that people can go back and study it and kind of sort of digest at their leisure. That’s a great idea. 

Lisa Lilly  37:00

You are our podcast listeners. Oh.

Emma Dhesi  37:04

You are a busy busy lady. Yeah. So tell me where can listeners where can listeners find out more about you online? 

If you’ve been working on your novel for years (perhaps even decades) the maybe it's time to consider working with a coach.

If you have multiple versions of your novel and you don’t know which works best, are scared nobody will like your book and don't feel like a 'real' writer, then my guess is coaching is the right next step for you.

Find out more and sign up for your free Clarity Call here: https://emmadhesi.com/personal-coaching/

 

Join Turning Readers Into Writers

Lisa Lilly  37:12

Yes, they can. For my fiction can go to lisalilly.com.

So that’s Lisalilly.com and if you go to that slash free, the first in my each of my series is free that both the supernatural thriller and mystery for writers looking for resources writing as a secondcareer.com.

There’s books on writing there. There’s lots of articles about writing, publishing, marketing and some free downloads. And then for the podcast. You can find that at Lisalilly.com/buffystory. 

Emma Dhesi  37:49

Fantastic. Wow. Brilliant. Well, Lisa, thank you so so much for your time today. I really enjoyed speaking to you. 

Lisa Lilly  37:55

Oh, it’s been wonderful. Thank you for having me on. And it was really terrific.

Emma Dhesi  38:02

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational. Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, Turning Readers into Writers.

It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel. If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called three secret hacks to write with consistency.

So go to emmadhesi.com/turning readers into writers. Hit join. Can’t wait to see you in there.

All right. Thank you. Bye bye.

 

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If this interview with Lisa Lilly was useful, you’ll love:

Alliance of Independent Authors

Shortcuts for Writers

Do you feel as if you don’t have the time or the money to invest in editing your novel? I know an online course that can help you to transform your manuscript WITHOUT breaking the bank. It’s called Book Editing Blueprint: A Step-By-Step Plan To Making Your Novels Publishable, and it was created by Stacy Juba of Shortcuts for Writers.

 

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emma dhesi

Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

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