Interview with Stephanie Han

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome. And here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focus on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

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Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Stephanie Han teaches online at doctorstephaniehan.com, delivering women’s creative writing workshops that focus on empowerment through narrative. She authored the fiction collection swimming in Hong Kong. She’s the recipient of the Patterson Fiction Prize, a finalist for AW Pace grace Paley prize for short fiction and the Spokane prize.

And she’s also been shortlisted for an Asian books blog Award, a pen and Vona fellow, she received grants from the LA Department of Cultural Affairs, and is the inaugural English literature PhD graduate of City University of Hong Kong. She lives in Hawaii, the home of her family since 1904.

And Stephanie was actually my writing teacher when we both lived in Hong Kong. And so it’s a real treat for me to have her on the show and find out about all the amazing things that she’s been doing since we were there.

Well, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining me today. I’m thrilled to have you on the show.

Stephanie Han  02:54

Thank you for having me. It’s great to see you Emma.

Emma Dhesi  02:58

So I wonder for our listeners, if you could tell us a little bit about how have you became a writer, your journey to authorship?

Stephanie Han  03:05

Sure, I was always a kid who liked to read. And I think that’s the key I read because I could enter different worlds and spaces when I was little. We moved around every year. And we often lived in places. I’m Korean American, Asian American, where I was kind of isolated socially. And so I remember asking my mom in the 70s mom, I don’t have any friends, you know, what can I do.

And instead of the modern mom, which would impart social emotional learning skills, my mother said, read a book because if you read a book, you can always have friends. And then she dropped me at the library pretty much like that. And so that started my writing journey because I became a reader and people who read a lot, eventually tried their hand at writing, which is a natural relationship, because you want to be in dialogue with the characters or the writers or your imagination and, and make those things that exist in your mind, often real on page.

So that is really what started my writing journey, which was being a kid who didn’t really fit in, and who wanted to figure out maybe where she belonged in the world and I wasn’t a good. I wasn’t like a really precocious reader or anything. When I was really small.

It’s very slow to read, actually in kindergarten, I would have been held back and flunked now, I didn’t even know my alphabet, I think until I was almost six years old. But I quickly became a reader. So by the time I was about nine or 10, I guess several years of social isolation.

I became a pretty avid reader and then I continued reading but even through high school I had, I always loved literature classes, and I liked you discussion. But I was never a kid that necessarily excelled at writing the analytical essay I just like to read. And that’s what I think. Put me on my journey to reading and right, you know, being a writer, honestly. 

Emma Dhesi  05:16

Yeah. Well, it’s amazing to think that that was your kind of start because then we come to the, the end of your education, you In fact, were one of the first students to be issued with the first female student to be issued with a PhD from City University. Oh, no, is it the first students will stop? 

Stephanie Han  05:33

Yeah, I was the inaugural student for the PhD program in literature at City University of Hong Kong, I’m really grateful for the opportunity. I have to say it didn’t. It didn’t. It wasn’t as if I was ever ambitious to be a PhD. I was in my late 40s.

And I thought I was going to get a job teaching at that university. I had an MFA. And I didn’t have a published book at the time. So I thought it was going to the job. The chair thought I was going to get the job that sub department chair said no way is she going to get the job. I didn’t know about this, I felt upset.

The chair was kind of freaked out. And, you know, he knew my writing because I was a journalist. And you said, you know, stuff. These are hard economic times. This is after the financial crisis. And, you know, let’s face it, you’re unemployed right now. This is our time to be a writer. Would you like to be the inaugural PhD student and I was like, I’ll think about it, I’m still mad. Then I thought about it.

And I was like, okay, there’s a small stipend, whatever, I’m going to get paid to read and write for a year, we’ll see. After a year, I wasn’t really sure I wanted to do it. But by then I was in too deep, I had already gotten done a year, and they brought a they had brought a scholar in so I could work with the scholar and they financed me. So yeah, that is how I became a PhD.

And I’m very glad that I did it. I am very, very glad. But it wasn’t as if I was, you know, my whole life dying to become one. And actually, at that point in my life, I had changed a lot, I had already read a lot of the Canon that I should read. And probably if you were to ask me, do you want to be a PhD and you know, art history, or archaeology or literature, I would have picked archaeology, I would have wanted to do something totally different, you know, because I don’t know just what was something new. It’s in literature in English.

It’s an Asian American literature and specific, and I focused on aesthetics and looking at Asian American literary aesthetics in particular in the 21st century, and where the literature is heading, and how it’s not necessarily a literature, only politics. 

Emma Dhesi  07:58

But that’s interesting, given. Yeah, we’ll talk about in a little bit, but where you are now? Sure. And we’ll congratulations on your PhD. You’ve made history by being the first one, so well done.

Stephanie Han  08:08

Thank you. 

Emma Dhesi  08:09

Now, you mentioned before that you have lived in many places. So I know as a child with with your family, you moved around a bit, and then you went to boarding school. And I know also as an adult, you’ve moved and lived in lots of different places. And in fact, we met in Hong Kong, but now I’m in Scotland, and you’re in Hawaii, the good deal there.

And quite how have those experiences if they have? Or maybe, and but how are those experiences of living in different places had an influence on your writing?

Stephanie Han  08:41

I think what it’s allowed me to do is to see different kinds of perspectives, you know, moving allowed me, in a sense to go out into the world to look at the different ways that people live, to try to reconfigure what I you know, you’re you’re forced to, you know, anybody who moves from one town to another country to country, you know, has to reexamine?

Well, not, some people don’t. So I take that back. But if you are sort of sensitive you, you sort of re examine what beliefs you had, and then you have to restructure these to some degree because you’re seeing a whole bunch of people live in this way. And so what does that mean?

And so and it also, so, so this is, I think, the most significant part of moving around and what it taught me was to look at different people look at different situations, and try to see myself in terms of this idea of difference and movement. How I fit in the world. 

Emma Dhesi  09:48

Yeah, yeah, interesting. And when we were both in Hong Kong you you were my writing teacher, I had a fantastic season of writing with you. And and one of the things that you helped me with you introduced me to deep reading, which I confess I don’t do enough of. And but I wonder if you could explain for some of our listeners, what deep reading is and how it can benefit benefit us as writers? 

A Collection of Short Stories with Stephanie Han

Stephanie Han  10:15

Sure. So deep reading and close reading these are, this is foundationally a very important skill, but also, it can be a little bit miserable. It’s sort of the sweating part of writing. It’s like the sit ups of writing, like the bench pressing, writing and basically, it’s moving very close into the sentence, and trying to break down the sentence and looking at the different words, what does each word mean?

You know, if you read a line of a poem, let’s say a line in a poem, or a few sentences in, in a, in a paragraph, what is contained in these two sentences that echo and reverberate throughout the book? What were What do you know? How does this word match with this word? This syllable? How does this syllable sound with this syllable, so what you’re doing is you’re taking a microscope, and you’re moving very close. And what that allows you to do is really think about sentence structure.

How how words carry different nuance and connotative. meaning, and so it’s a practice that I think is very important if you want to write, and it helps with critical thinking. So deep reading, close reading, this is foundational to a lot of ways that we teach critical thinking, particularly in secondary, school and undergraduate years.

And as a writer, it’s important because then you become very conscious of, you know, the words that you’re putting down. Ideally, you don’t you don’t stop yourself up so much that you won’t write anything because you can’t overthink it.

But when you’re editing and looking at it, you can see does this sound beautiful? Does is this mellifluous, this the way these syllables go? Does that sentence kind of echo to the sentence at the end of the chapter? You know, you can think about things like that. And that’s important, right? It’s a work of art, literature is art. 

Emma Dhesi  12:21

So is that a skill that one would use in the first draft? Or is it generally we would go back and use that kind of loose? I think… in the revision? 

Stephanie Han  12:32

Yeah, you know what, when you’re doing the first draft, you’re kind of vomiting on the page. I mean, you just sort of putting it all out there, right? You’re trying to let your creative juices go. And then, you know, we can sometimes play with it, let’s say even on your first draft, but I would say going over it, you can think about that a little more deeply.

Because deep reading and close reading that’s really title so to editing, right? How we have to look very carefully at things. So it’s just a skill to, to use and to deploy. And sometimes, you know, when you when, when we read off, and we don’t do that, but you ever noticed when your eye catches a phrase or word, you reread it.

That’s, that’s why there’s something in there. It’s weighted, and you enjoy that one sentence and you’re like, yeah, that’s so great. That’s so true. And that’s an example of, you know, deep reading clustering.

Emma Dhesi  13:23

Okay, cool. My dad used to do that he was a slow reader anyway, but it would take an even longer, because they he, he’s the kind of reader who did love to go back and reread a paragraph or reread a page. I don’t know how he had the patience to do it so often, but that was him with great enjoyment. Awesome.

Now as a writing teacher, and you certainly were working with me and I was very much a new writer. What are some of the common mistakes that you see new writers make?

And do you have any suggestions as to how they can avoid making those those basic those kind of foundational mistakes? 

Stephanie Han  13:59

Um, one of the main things is, um, structure that you need to have a beginning and middle and end, I don’t want to get into all the details of it, because there’s lots of debates surrounding story structure, right experimental writing, or is it valid, blah, blah, blah.

But you do need a beginning, middle and end, okay? Because it’s, you know, there’s a, what we’re trying to do when we write is we’re trying to bring an idea of unity, right? We want people to feel good, when they read or after they read, we want them to, you know, your words are filling up what they’re thinking, but they don’t have words for and so, these this idea that brings unity is often idea of a beginning, middle and end.

So you need to have that. I would say that’s one of the main things. And also, um, you know, we’re people and we identify with characters. I mean, I guess, you know, you can have an animal as being a character, but we tend to and I’m speaking of prose not so much poetry which is different, which is fragments and you know, emotions and fleeting feelings often but we need a character and you need to think about this character because this character is what people will project on to so you need an interesting character, and the character does not have to be perfect.

The character needs to be interesting, and three dimensional, and we don’t have to make the character do everything, right. Because no one is right people go to reading because they have problems and nothing is more boring than reading about a perfect character, right?

That’s not the human experience, we find solace, and we find companionship and we find relief when we meet a character on the page, who seems to be going through some of the things that we go through or understanding this or that or is sensitive in the way that we’re sensitive and so making a character that’s realistic, or if you’re writing fantasy, you can make one that’s phantasmagorical, or whatever, but a character is key.

So that’s character is the action is the story. 

Emma Dhesi  16:14

Do you think the character needs to be likable? No, likeable kind of different things? 

Stephanie Han  16:20

No, no, no, there is a difference, though Americans tend to like protagonists that are sort of more likeable. I noticed that in British Literature, there’s a little more room, there’s not the expectation that the character always has to be likable.

The character can also be complicated, and not likable. And that’s also interesting to read, right? We all would love to read the villain, or we all love to read somebody who drives us crazy.

But Americans, and I think this has to do with the kind of American cultural ethos tend to lean towards characters that are, you know, it’s cultural characteristics that are likable, or you know, pioneering defy the odds, all that kind of, I mean, look at Hollywood, Hollywood’s American. That’s true. You know.

So there, it varies from culture to culture, what the expectations are, and it has to do with the cultural norms of what they think people should be. Right? 

Emma Dhesi  17:18

Right. Okay. Yes, yes. I’m just going to move on a little bit, and to talk a little bit about more about what you do. And first of all, as an instructor, and then also your own writing, as well.

But your, your, on your website, you mentioned that you when you talk about warrior women writers, and I love this race, I love would love to consider myself a warrior woman writer. So what what where did this phrase come from? And what for you is a warrior woman writer?

Stephanie Han  17:52

Okay, so I, when I was young, I read the book, the woman warrior by Maxine Hong Kingston, Chinese American writer, and this is one of the first books, it’s creative nonfiction book that was written by an Asian American woman.

And when I read this, I really liked especially the opening, the opening pages opening first chapter where there’s this, you know, woman, like, who seems to be defying, and she’s a warrior woman, conventional norms.

Previous to that I had read a book, which was also nice, but the, but the little Asian girl was doing everything a parents wanted, and it was really annoying to read. So, so the warrior, offered to kind of creative, imaginative relief, right? And so I had this previously on my website, but I started to think about women who kind of step out the conventional role in that they take a stance, they are unafraid to let their voices be heard in some way.

And what does that mean? And how does it you know, what does it look like? And I thought, it’s important for women to see these kinds of women, these different kinds of women who’ve taken the risk to let their voices be heard. And, you know, when I started it before, in my other website, it was you didn’t have to be a writer, there was a costume designer or, you know, the, you know, people who who take a stance also in their community, right community activists who may be sort of defy a social norm about how women should be.

And so I recently revived that, you know, woman warrior writer because I thought a lot about how it’s very brave for women to simply write their story on the page. To write a story down to declare that you have the right to write as a woman is really a bold act of defiance and rebellion, because everything that we are as women, is down to the interpreted texts that have set our way of living through religion, finance, culture, everything, you know, we are governed by laws and social mores that we did not write.

We interpreted them through the years, but we have not written them and women haven’t been writing for very long at all, you know, I mean, they always point to like Sappho. But the reason you’re pointing because it’s so rare, she’s the only one you can think of, you know, or more Osaki, you know, from Japan tail again, G.

But so I wanted to showcase women who can show other women that they can learn to step out into the world and raise their voices, and yes, author their lives. In other words, write their own story of who they are metaphorically. And literally, we always are offering our lives we exist in this narrative of life, where our greatest stories.

Emma Dhesi  21:05

Kind of prompted or led you in the direction or what you teach online now, and the classes that you hold, looking at intersectionality, and in particular, the experience of Asian and Asian American women.

So these are some of the concepts then that led you towards focusing on these areas?

Stephanie Han  21:25

Um, well, yeah, so I was asked actually to teach a class on Asian and Asian American women’s literature, by some students, because a lot of young Asian Americans, and do not have the opportunity to study Asian American literature in college, either the classes are not offered, or their parents told them, they should be an engineer.

And so I told them don’t take that kind of class. And so this is part of the the gap that I was attempting to fill, and also to provide a forum because there may be particular cultural notions that have found Asian women within the context of nation and how they what they’re writing about.

And so this has been a great class, I’ve really enjoyed it. And intersectionality this manuscript workshop is really for, it’s open to all women, and, you know, women who are working on a specific book project, because it’s a long haul to get through a book. And women need the kind of support to do this. And so that, you know, that has, you know, everybody’s represented in that group.

It’s really just open. And it’s a good learning experience, because intersectionality deals with this idea, it was the concept of intersectionality was put forward by a black legal scholar who stated Crenshaw, who stated that, you know, you can’t just be your race, you are also your gender, you’re also we have multiple identities, right? and, and our feminism and our ideas of self and writing are not determined by simply one thing, there are a confluence of many things and so this is what the class also attempts to do is to show women the different sides of the many different ways we are women, and to honor and to learn and to respect the different journeys we’ve traveled and to help each other, bring those words to the page, and to encourage us to go further out into the world with our individual and our own communities idea, and how do we intersect?

How do we help each other How as women do we work? You know, so… 

Emma Dhesi  23:50

They’re fantastic. Yeah. I imagine that they are in great demand I can imagine women that you know, yeah. Now one of the things, again, that I saw on your website was, and I quote, The practice of writing is not always connected with the realities of publishing.

And this is something that I think a lot of writers, there’s a big gap there. And so you mentioned that some of your published works were later rejected by other publishers. Some of those rejected works, then later won prizes. So it’s really a great disparity there or how just objective fiction friction can be. 

Stephanie Han  24:32

Well, you know what? It’s not to, I’m like a professional being reject, like, I’ve been rejected hundreds of times. So many times, I could actually probably write a dissertation on it, because I’ve watched the evolution of rejections from when you stepped to send in an envelope and there was a debate like, should you send in an old envelope or a new envelope and then you’d wait for the little tag?

Should you only do one at a time with mail, that would be once every three months, you know, like this I i’ve been rejected for decades. Every story I wrote in my published collections swimming in Hong Kong was rejected with the exception of maybe one well over 100 times.

And the whole collection was also rejected multiple times and in fact, this book, after it was published and won awards, I got three years after the publication date. This is only just two years ago, I got a note from a pretty well respected editor telling me that they like the book, but yeah, blah, blah, rejecting it again.

And I emailed I said, Sorry, you’re too late. It’s already been turned in published, it already won awards, it’s out, you know, you, you’re free to reject it but maybe you better rethink some of your criteria. That’s what I did say…

Emma Dhesi  25:48

That’s very, I think, assuring for…. love.

Stephanie Han  25:52

Yeah, because what happens is, yeah, what happens is we associate publication with validation, you were valid, simply because you wrote something you are writing. And this in itself is a different view getting published, okay.

And a lot of what publication is down to is being seen, being seen by somebody for who you are inside your creative expression is, and you know, what, you them that deep and hard, because maybe in the end, I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but maybe in the end, all you want to do is be seen by one person and, you know, that’s a really long journey than to attempt to travel to publish to this.

And that when all you want is, you know, your cousin to say, you know what, you’re a good writer, I see you, I see you. And you know, that it’s a so that, I think, is what people really need to examine who they want to be seen by and where that comes from. And I think that will sort of solve a lot of the publication anx.

Because it’s about validity. But you should always separate that, because there’s a lot of subjectivities that go along with it, if I believe only 5% of the books are published by you know, yeah, so so that’s all I want to say is that you can always, always write because that’s what makes you a writer.

Publishing does not make you a writer, writing makes you a writer. 

Emma Dhesi  27:32

Yes. So well said Well said. So I’m conscious of time. And so I didn’t want to finish without asking, What are you writing at the moment? You mentioned, you’re swimming in Hong Kong there? Are you continuing with your poetry? Are you writing short stories? 

Stephanie Han  27:46

Well, right now, what I’ve been focusing on is writing a book to help women to write their divorce story. So I’m very interested in I was a writing teacher for many years, in giving women sort of semi prescriptive, you know, manuals or books to help them find their voice.

This is really my priority now. And so I’m writing one, to help women write their divorce narrative and this can be used potentially when they submit it if they can to court during the divorce and it’s also and or can be used for healing.

So I invite these women who are undergoing a divorce to please you know, join the Facebook group, Rewrite your divorce story. and sign up, I give a class on writing your divorce narrative. I’m finishing, writing a little bit of an introduction to a book of poetry and some prose that I wrote while I was in Hong Kong, because what I realized was, I used this kind of writing to try to understand where I was, and I think that a lot of people get afraid of poetry, of writing it of, of looking at it.

And poetry, again, you write for yourself can be used for yourself. So it’s, so I want to, I have my book done, but I want to give instructions about how you can use it and my book is just like a test case for how you can try to write your own book. And then finally, I’m finishing a project.

It’s a third project, and they’re all linked called Tied to a class called power journal, which is to help women write their own book of philosophy. So it’s 30 prompts, it’s based on ideas. Let’s save the eaching which are philosophical concepts and use to govern your life and you can respond to these prompts and at the end of the 30, you’ll have your own little Personal book of philosophy.

So when you’re not sure where to turn, you open your own little book, and what did you think about this concept of balance, or love? Or parents, and you have your own little Book of Wisdom? And sure, you can ask opinions of people, but you know the answer inside, and you can look at your own book, and we’re lying yourself. So these are all I’m, I’m, you know, I’m sort of finishing up all of them.

They’re almost all done. So they should be ready, boom, boom, boom. And it’s they’re really instructional guides to help women. Right? 

Emma Dhesi  30:36

Gosh, You are busy, you’ve been very busy. And and will they be? Will you be kind of looking for a publisher to do that? Or will they be really…

Stephanie Han  30:46

I think for the, I think for initially, for the divorce, writing manual, I might release that myself as an independent kind of book because it’s a, it’s like a self help. It’s a practical guide.

If I should turn it into something longer more of fiction or nonfiction piece, that would be different. But I think this guide, which might only end up being, let’s say, 15 to 20,000 words is useful is a useful little workbook type of book.

And I’m all about using my skills now to help women write their stories. That’s really what I’m dedicating my life to, at this point. 

Emma Dhesi  31:30

Lovely. So where can listeners find out more about the work that you’re doing online? 

Stephanie Han  31:36

Sure. So right now, you should go to Drstephaniehan.com, Drstephaniehan.com and sign up for a newsletter, I’m gonna kind of rehabbing and re hauling my website. But they’ll be classes up soon and also drop a line and let me know what do you want to learn about? I’m happy to you know, that’s how the Asian American women’s workshop started.

Because I had a few Asian American women say, I want to learn literature, written by Asian American women. Can you help us and I was so thrilled because that was an area where I could help them. Right. And it ended up helping other women who joined the class. So if there’s something you feel you need help with, with writing, please let me know.

Because there’s a chances are if you need help, there’s another woman who needs help, and we can have a class. 

Emma Dhesi  32:36

Wonderful. Well, Dr. Stephanie Han, thank you so so much for your time. It’s been lovely seeing you. 

Stephanie Han  32:43

Thank you Emma. Thank you so much, and good luck.

Emma Dhesi  32:49

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational. Now, don’t forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, Turning readers into writers.

It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel. If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet. They’re called three secret hacks to write with consistency.

So go to emmadhesi.com/turning readers into writers hits join.

I can’t wait to see you in there.

All right. Thank you.

Bye bye.

If this interview with Stephanie Han was useful, you’ll love:

• Write your book with romance suspense author Sylvia Hubbard – EMMA DHESI
• The 10 Day Novelist Lewis Jorstad – EMMA DHESI
• The Structure of Story with Ross Hartmann – EMMA DHESI

Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

Interview with Ross Hartmann

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome. And here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focus on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com, where you’ll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started. Before we dive in. This week’s episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write.

In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life. Now, you might be thinking that you don’t have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn’t think you had.

If you thought writing always involved a pen and paper or a keyboard. Think again. If you thought you needed at least an hour at a time to write your manuscript. I help you reframe that you won’t be disappointed. Get your free copy of 30 Top Tips to find time to rate by going to emmadhesi.com/30 top tips.

Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Ross Hartmann is the author of the best selling storytelling book, The structure of story. And the creative director at KIINGO, a storytelling school dedicated to teaching the fundamental principles of successful storytelling. his hobbies include writing, creating tools for writers and learning the tools that help make a great story. So let’s chat to Ross and find out a little bit more about the structure of story.

Well, welcome Ross to the show. Thank you so so much for being here. And I want to just to start off with asking you how you came to be in the world of storytelling, what brought you to fiction?

Ross Hartmann  02:40

A great question, it was kind of a meandering journey. I, I went to college for songwriting, actually, which is a type of writing, you know, it’s it’s I created fictional songs. So it’s a different medium. So you have different constraints in the story that you can get across to songs. But, you know, writing has always been a part of my life.

And after, after that, I was kind of pulled toward virtual reality. I’ve always been a tech guy too. And that got me into the world of filmmaking and screenwriting, which then led me to, you know, fiction, writing, and screenwriting and storytelling in general. So it’s been a bit of a meander, but it’s been fun. It’s all been centered around bringing imaginary worlds to life, essentially.

Emma Dhesi  03:29

You are true creative writer then 

Ross Hartmann  03:32

I I’d like to think so. It’s interesting, though, I feel like I’m an analytical creative, which is kind of an oxymoron. But that’s how I like to approach it. 

Emma Dhesi  03:40

Well, you know, I’ve just been reading or I’m in the middle of reading Sean coins story grid. And he strikes me too. It’s very much an analytical creative. So you’re in good company? 

Ross Hartmann  03:50

Oh, very good. Yeah. That’s a great one, a great book.

Emma Dhesi  03:54

So I’ve just mentioned Sean Coins Story grid, but you to have your own approach to the structure of story. That’s your book that you published last year. So congratulations on that. 

Ross Hartmann  04:06

Thank you so much. Appreciate it. 

 Emma Dhesi  04:07

In it, you talk about there being tools to storytelling, rather than rules to storytelling. So I wonder if you just share with us a little bit more about about those tools and what they are? 

Ross Hartmann  04:20

Yeah, so I feel like a lot of people approach stories or story analysis, from the perspective of let’s line up our top 100 favorite stories and look at what happens in them and find the commonalities between them. Right, like find the symptoms of what makes a great story.

But I was thinking, like, what if we decided to approach it from first principles? Like, instead of just looking at what the best stories have in common, we instead say, Okay, what does a story actually need to accomplish? And can we take those core elements and build up from there? And from that, I kind of started with this idea that a story needs to one be interesting, right?

Or it needs to engage the reader engage the audience, make it so that we’re not frustrated, we’re not confused. And in other words, we don’t just want to put the book down, right, so be engaged, and then secondarily be meaningful.

The story needs to be something that we take home with us, right? Like, if you’ve got a story that’s engaging, but not meaningful, it might be something that gives you a sugar high, you have a fantastic time at the theater or you reading the book, it’s great. But then you leave the theater, you put down the book, and then it doesn’t really stick with it, you don’t really talk to anybody about it was a fun ride, but nothing really.

But those life changing books and those life changing movies, those are the ones that have meaning in their core. So I take these two central concepts of be engaging and be meaningful. And I think of those as two buckets of tools that we can use. And those that are about engaging the audience are dramatic tools.

And those that are about making the story meaningful are thematic tools. And so from there, we can build up okay, what are the tools we can use to create drama? What are the tools we can use to create theme all toward that end of making it engaging and meaningful? And the tools then are kind of picked from the great stories to see how they can support those aims.

Emma Dhesi  06:22

 Okay, I like that. It makes it feel that it’s more fluid then. And depending on the type of story you’re telling, you can pick and choose from those. So the buckets of tools that you’ve got, are they are all of those tools compulsory, or or can you In fact, pick and choose the ones that you need, depending on the story that you’re telling? 

Ross Hartmann  06:47

That’s a fantastic question. And it’s definitely not compulsory to use all of them. And I think that’s a core piece of the idea, right? Because there’s this idea in the book that I like to push over and over, like you mentioned, tools, not rules, because rules kind of imply that, well, this is a mandatory set of things that you must do in your story, if you want any chance of being good.

But that’s not really a helpful approach. I feel like I feel like the best approach is, what effect do we want to have on the reader? And what tools create that effect. And if we approach it that way, we can approach it in, in a way that really serves the story, instead of serving like the 12 step beat sheet that we found online, right.

And I mean, not to say that there’s not a place for that there definitely is, it can just be helpful to know that you have so many more options than you may realize, like, for instance, there’s this common piece of advice in the writing community, that you must have an active protagonist. And I think broadly, that’s a good guideline.

But that does cut off some stories that you can tell because there are some stories that have a passive protagonist, and they’re good stories. The Graduate, for instance, he is a relatively the protagonist of that story is a relatively passive one. He doesn’t he things happen to him. But that story is driven forward by dramatic irony, which is a different tool than dramatic tension.

And dramatic tension is the one that comes with, well, your character must be active, they must have a goal, they must go after it. Whereas dramatic irony is more like, Well, I have a secret. And I don’t want anybody to know what it is. And the question is really, when or how will that secret be revealed? And that’s what drives the story forward.

Right? So in that way, you can have other characters taking action. So it’s, you know, so many tools, so many opportunities. 

Emma Dhesi  08:50

I love it. Oh, yeah. I hadn’t thought about the sort of passive character in that way. Certainly. Yeah. Everything I’ve come across today’s I think anyway, has certainly been about the, the protagonist is the one who’s taking the action, who’s driving the story forward.

And if they’re not doing it, then then there’s no conflict. And then there’s no story. But actually, if I’m understanding your right, the passive character, there’s still conflict, but it’s coming from outside. But then there would still be internal conflict as well with their no, I guess, I guess how they respond to what’s happening to them.

Ross Hartmann  09:30

Yes, absolutely. And so if we go back to that idea that all we really need to do is keep the reader engaged, right? And so we’ve got a list of tools that can help us do that. One is dramatic tension, where a character goes after a goal and and pursues it, and then they run it.

They come across obstacles and challenges, sometimes in the form of an embodied antagonist or villain, sometimes just the antagonistic forces in the world, but  and then sometimes they have internal dilemmas regarding the pursuit of that goal, but dramatic irony is when obviously the audience knows something that one or more characters doesn’t.

And there’s this interesting situation with dramatic irony and makes us want to stick around until that, that this, that informational disequilibrium is resolved, essentially, when when the characters that don’t know, find out. So if the villain is waiting in the basement of the protagonists house protecting this house, we want to stick around and find out.

Okay, when is the protagonist going to find out right? Yeah. And so dramatic irony in that way, you’ll see this a lot with crime shows and generally antihero shows where the protagonist is doing something forbidden or illicit or illegal. And there’s always this underlying tension, will they be found out. And that’s, that’s something that really drives the energy of the of the show or the story.

So yeah, there’s a bunch of different tools that we can use, rather than just pursuing a goal. Although pursuing a goal, I will admit, it’s probably 80-90 plus percent of stories, because it’s such a powerful tool.

Emma Dhesi  11:10

But it’s good to know it’s not the only one because there are, you know, not every storyteller wants to be telling that fast paced or that that normal narrative. And so it’s nice to know that there’s options and different ways, different tools to use to tell those different stories.

Now, your book is divided into seven parts. And I love the analogy that you’ve used in it, you’ve, you’ve used the analogy of house building, which I really enjoyed. So I wonder if you could tell us where you got the analogy from? And then maybe kind of maybe give us a quick outline of those those different parts? 

Ross Hartmann  11:47

Yes, well, essentially, the idea is that when we’re building a house, there are some things that we have to get right up front, right. So if we, if we lay down on a foundation that’s going to crack, you may not notice it until later in the building process, but it’s going to destroy everything. And so it’s really important at the beginning that we almost make success inevitable in the story.

And there are certain tools that we can use to make success inevitable, like character engines, for instance, where you have a character that creates their own story, energy. And one thing in the book that I address is this idea of giving a character a void or an emptiness. And sometimes that comes from pain from the past some ghost event that they’re trying to address you’re trying to hide, or trying to fill in other perhaps not so healthy ways.

Or a character who has an obsession, right, a character who wants something desperately. This is like all the 90s Disney movies, right? They all start with this song. Well, I wish I didn’t have to be part of this life, I wish I could have something more. Right. That’s the character with the obsession, they don’t necessarily have a trauma in their past.

But that’s an example of a story engine, a character engine and it’s an example of building a foundation where your story is going to, I won’t say right itself, but it’s going to provide you with endless material. Because anytime you don’t know what to do, you just have you just threaten the character’s obsession, or, or you take it away, or you offer an opportunity.

And you can always generate more energy. So the house metaphor is start with the really, really foundational important stuff and make the rest inevitable. And so I do start with starting a story from either plotting from theme from a story world, or from a character because not all stories start the same, right? Especially when with ideas, we can start from any one of those areas.

And we can build it out depending on where we start from. And so once you have those core ideas, I go through vetting the idea, and then breaking it down into beats if you’re so inclined to do that. And then finally, once we have that foundation, we go into writing the actual scenes, which of course is where the story actually gets onto the page and comes to life.

The rest is, you know, effectively theoretical until it actually becomes a scene but it’s good to know so you can get those scenes hammered out. So yeah, the this the house idea is just to make it so that the story becomes inevitable and has a sturdy foundation. 

Emma Dhesi  14:38

It’s great. It’s great. I’m in that foundation section you do you use the word plotting, plotting from character plotting from theme just for the discovery writers out there is it do you literally mean that you encourage plotting or do you feel that the way you structure your story is equally acceptable to discovery writers as well.

Ross Hartmann  15:03

There is such a great question. So I’ll say that for discovery writers, the thing that I like to do is to not plot the beats, obviously, but rather to create engine story engines that make the story unfold naturally, in a way that comes to a conclusion naturally. So in other words, one of the tools is dramatic tension, right?

And with dramatic tension if we create a concrete goal, and we create one or more antagonistic forces, that structurally opposed to the protagonist, and we add some urgency or ticking clock, like, what’s the reason that the protagonist has to do this now, rather than later? Why can’t they just walk away? And then put something of deep value on the line stakes?

And then give the character a plan? How do they actually intend to accomplish that goal? And if you set up those elements, then you make the plot inevitable, right? And you don’t have to know exactly how things are gonna work. You don’t have to know the beats of every bit. But you just ask at any point in time, okay, my character has this problem or this goal that they’re pursuing.

And they have this plan. So let’s have them pursue that plan. And then you just write them pursuing the plan. And then well, they have an opponent, right. So something is unexpected is going to happen. Okay, well, now they have to revise their plan. And something in the story I talked about is called the disruption cycle where a character pursues their plan, but something unexpected happens.

Sometimes it’s an opportunity. It’s a problem. It’s a revelation. But no matter what, it forces the character to address that disruption, sometimes also known as a turning point. Yeah, something like that. And the character then has to address it, they enter a reaction cycle, also known as sequels and interludes, and then from there, they form a new plan and take action.

So for discovery writers, it’s important to make sure that you have these foundational tools and engines, not so much that you know, the exact beats, but so that you make the beats naturally inevitable. It’s kind of like you plant a seed that will make the plant inevitable, right? Yeah. And you don’t have to know the whole growing process, but it will work. 

Emma Dhesi  17:33

Yeah, yeah. I think sort of similar to I just because I’m a discovery writer, and I tried to just to give myself a few signposts. So as long as I know where I’m starting, and I’ve got an idea roughly where the middle of what’s going to happen in the middle, and then I cover an idea of what I want the end to be, then that gives me just enough to keep me going in the right direction.

Enough of an engine to keep me ticking along. And we see what happens as I go along. So quick breaks down, but sometimes it keeps going, and I get to my destination. So I that’s I like that I like that idea of the engine. Um, another interesting thing that you talk about in the book, which I love, I love this idea is that you talk about story patterns. And, and so how might we decide?

Which one is the story pattern, first of all, and then how might we decide which pattern is right for the story that we’re telling

The Structure of Story with Ross Hartmann

Emma Dhesi  28:26

And so, okay, we’ve got the beat. So Part Seven of the because about seeing writing, and so what for you and makes a good scene, what what are the kind of the crucial tools that we would need to incorporate within a scene to make it work and to help it keep moving a story forward or making sure it earns its place in the story? 

Ross Hartmann  28:51

That is such a good question. And such a such a big question, too, because you know, the scene is where the story happens, right? And so anything that you’ve outlined in your, your beat sheet, or your your outline, or any sort of thing you’ve given to the character’s background, that’s not real, unless it comes out in a scene, right?

So what I like to start with is first asking, okay, what does the scene need to accomplish? Just in the same way we I asked that for stories, what does the story need to accomplish needs to be engaging and meaningful? What does the scene need to accomplish, and different scenes need to accomplish different things?

So I will start by saying that scene is another word we use broadly, that can mean a couple different things. And then there’s another way we use scene, which is more specific. And, and it doesn’t mean that other scene. So broadly speaking, a scene is some period of time and location which something happens, right.

But more specifically, a scene is contrasted with what’s called a sequel or an interlude when we’re talking about scene structure. And in that sense, a scene is when there’s a meaningful disruption. Or in other words, a turning point. Some people say, a crisis point, it’s when something happens, that turns a story in a new direction.

There’s a new problem, there’s a new opportunity, or there’s a new revelation. Now, that’s a scene proper. But those aren’t the only things that happen in a story, right? If you just had every scene, problem, problem, problem, problem, opportunity, opportunity that can make for a great, fast paced thriller, right.

But if you’re not writing that, and you want a bit of a slower pace, there are these moments in between where characters digest what just happened. They react emotionally, analytically, they weigh their options, they sit with those that are the closest relationships, they mourn, they celebrate, they’re frustrated, they’re confused.

Those are where the emotions come in. And those are not proper scenes. Because they don’t turn the story in a new direction. It’s really about digestion. And it’s about feeling the emotion that comes from the disruption that we saw before. And it’s really important part of the story. If you this was one of

Unfortunately, the complaints with the latest Star Wars is that it was just action, like just revelation, something terrible would happen. And the characters wouldn’t take half a second to think about what it meant or why it mattered. And so consequently, it can start to feel the disruptions or turning points can feel less significant.

So okay, so brought so their scenes in their sequels, there’s the disruption, and there’s the reaction. So we have to think about what does our scene need to accomplish? And then this is where dramatization comes into play. Right? So there’s a piece of information we want to convey. Let’s say we want to show that our character is selfish.

Well, the question then is, how do we show that? How do we put that on the page. And the scene is, of course, where we get this idea of show don’t tell. This is where we want to dramatize and not summarize, I will probably say that there are times where we do want to tell it does have its place. But showing is a good idea, too.

So when we are going through scenes, there’s a bunch of different tools that we can use. There’s clones, there’s comparisons, there’s objects, that’s a huge, huge thing. There’s moral dialogue, where characters are giving their opinions and their beliefs, in comparison is one of the biggest ones. But that’s all for conveying information, there was this story that I thought was a fantastic example of show don’t tell using comparison.

Alright, so there’s this husband and wife, excuse me, husband and wife on in an elevator and the husband and the wife both look like they hate each other. Because they do. And they just, they’re over it. And he doesn’t, he still has his hat on, where you know, let’s say it was back in the 20s or 30s, he should have taken his hat off in the elevator or something.

And then this, the elevator doors open. And this beautiful woman walks in, and the man perks up and smiles and takes off his hat. Okay, so that right there just tells you a few things about the guy. But it also tells you a few things about their relationship.

And that information can all be conveyed silently. You don’t need any dialogue to do that. And that’s over that’s dramatization. That scene work. It’s beautiful. 

Emma Dhesi  33:40

Yeah, I just you describing that there. I immediately had this image in my head of a guy whose face lights up and the hat comes off and the wife next to…

Ross Hartmann  33:49

The wife scowls at him, right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. 

Emma Dhesi  33:54

So that’s, that’s kind of use of an object did you say, of how we can dramatize 

Ross Hartmann  33:58

Yes, and you can give meaning to objects, right. And then you can bring those objects back in later scenes. So now the, the hat has some significance. So if you brought it back in another scene, we would be reminded of that previous moment. And so now it has some meaning when tied to their relationship and, and how he feels about her and vice versa. So it’s objects are a brilliant thing to do with scenes as well. 

Emma Dhesi  34:26

Can you give us an example of another not an object you met? You mentioned a few things there. And I wonder if you could give us another example?

Ross Hartmann  34:34

Yeah. So one is reaction, which I really love. And this is used great in the sounds of the lambs, I will say actually, comparison is another great tool and that was used in that last example I gave where we compared how he treats her versus how he treats this other woman and so we just showed a comparison with how a character acts in one situation versus a similar situation and that tells us what they value but reaction is huge.

So in The Silence of the Lambs, Clarice is going to meet Hannibal Lecter for the first time. And she’s warned over and over. This guy is dangerous, right? We, everybody tells us Don’t let him get inside your head, he’s going to destroy you basically, right? incredibly dangerous. And so we haven’t seen them. We don’t know anything.

But how the characters react is a way for us to understand something about this character nd then when she’s walking down the hallway, she sees all sorts of terrible prisoners in the in the jail. And they’re just one after the other is more terrible than the last and just saying crude things and just acting immorally.

And we get to, we finally get to him, and he’s just standing there. And he’s not saying anything. But we know he’s at the end of the hallway. That’s comparison to he is worse than all these other criminals that we thought were so bad. So we’re making use of both comparison in there and reaction. There’s so many great tools for conveying information. And you know, like how they treat them, too.

They don’t just walk him out of his cell, they put him in a straitjacket with a mask on. And they tie into a dolly. And so he doesn’t even get to walk. So that’s all conveying This is a dangerous guy. We don’t actually even have to see him do anything. It’s just all through reaction. 

Emma Dhesi  36:27

Mm hmm. Oh, it’s a long time since I’ve watched that movie. But now that you’re talking about that, I can picture it, I might have to go back and rewatch it. Such a great one. Yeah, he those examples. However, that’s that’s been wonderful. Thank you for talking me through through the structural story through the different parts, and particularly about the beats and the scenes. I’ve loved learning about that. Thank you so much. 

Ross Hartmann  36:50

So fun. Thank you so much. 

Emma Dhesi  36:52

So I know that the structure of story, that’s just one part of what you do, the book itself is just one part of what you do. And you also have a website called Kingo. And I have to admit, I’m intrigued by the name because it’s K II NGO, where did the name come from? 

Ross Hartmann  37:10

Yeah, it’s it’s a couple of things. One is just the core idea comes from creative lingo. Like just the the nomenclature of creativity and, and, broadly speaking, creating stories, but the double AI is because the URL is available, and I really liked it. So…

Emma Dhesi  37:36

Fair enough 

Ross Hartmann  37:38

To come up with a better reason. But I like it. Honestly. It’s kind of fun. Making smiley face on there somewhere. 

Emma Dhesi  37:44

Yeah, no, it’s great. It’s great. And Kiingo creative, I think is the kind of the name of the website. 

Ross Hartmann  37:50

So kiingo.com. Yeah.

Emma Dhesi  37:52

Yeah. Say that again? Sorry. 

Ross Hartmann  37:54

Oh, kingo. calm. Exactly. And then kiingo Creative is the the handle I use on most social media. Exactly. 

Emma Dhesi  38:01

So tell us about Kiingo What are what kind of the other things that you You do? Because I know you’ve got a course there’s podcast, but you’ve also kind of got other things in the mix as well? 

Ross Hartmann  38:12

Yes. Okay. So broadly speaking, it’s just tools to help writers. So if you’re a writer, and you want to become a better writer, we’re here for you. So we do that in a couple different ways. There are daily tips that we release every day.

So it’s just a little bite sized tip if you want to improve your writing, but you don’t want to dive into this massive long thing you just want a little bit every morning to inspire you get those creative juices flowing. We have that at kiingo.com/tips.

But we also have it on Instagram, Twitter every day, a new writing tip. And then with, we’ve also got a course like you mentioned, and then the book, which is sort of the compilation of all our most of the writing tips and puts it in a cohesive journey for you. So you can learn everything from start to finish. And we’re currently working on writing software, actually.

So we’re working on something that’s going to help writers throughout the entire process. So right now, there are a lot of different tools for drafting, outlining, for revising, editing, and then for formatting and publishing, right, we’re going to try to make something that can be your full ecosystem where you go you’re able to plot an outline, draft review, you can send a link to your editor, whether they have the software or not and it can track the changes and they can see all that and then you know formatting like vellum and this is pretty ambitious. we’re nowhere near this yet, but this would be the idea and and make it so it’s really a one stop shop for a writer’s process.

And and that’s what we’re working on right now. The first thing that will come out is the word processor and it will have All sorts of fun tools, there’ll be a one time fee instead of a cloud, like recurring fee.

I know people don’t like the recurring fees. There’s sinking across devices, all the different devices and version history and everything. So it should be cool. 

Emma Dhesi  40:13

I should be cool. Yeah, that sounds fun. That sounds ideal. Because Yeah, it’s frustrating, not frustrating. But there’s so there is so much out there that you have to do this software for that this software from you have it all in one place where you know, you can just do the whole process and one thing, and then send it off to be you know, if you’re doing ebooks and send it off and be uploaded. Perfect. I love the idea that you can send it to your editor and do the track changes.

That sounds great as well. And wonderful. Do you yet know when the first phase is going to be released? 

Ross Hartmann  40:46

A great question. So for the for the actual writing processor, we’re targeting an alpha release in May, May of 2021, in case you’re listening to this in the past, and then a couple months after we’ll do a beta. And then what I also want to do is make sure that there’s a mobile app available too, because I know some people like to write on the go.

So yeah, that’s that’s the target right now, you know, there’s going to be a lot of missing features in this in the beginning, but I would love just to get everybody’s feedback and know what is in your dream writing software. What do you want to see? And hopefully we can integrate that. 

Emma Dhesi  41:26

So if anybody listening does have you know, if they do have an idea about what they would like to see you do you want people to get in touch with you and let you know? 

Ross Hartmann  41:26

Yeah, I think you know, Instagram is probably the fastest but kiingo.com/contact. I’ll also reply to that probably within 24 hours. So kiingo.com is where all the latest stuff happens if you want all the news and everything K II N G O get those two eyes in there. Please yes. 

Emma Dhesi  41:35

What’s the best way for them to do that? 

Ross Hartmann  41:38

They can contact us on Kiingo Just go to Kiingo.com k ii n g o .com/contact. You can also contact us through you know, Instagram can go creative K ii NGO, Facebook, Twitter, they’re all the same handle. 

Emma Dhesi  41:53

Cool. I shall link to those in the show notes. And are you looking for when the beta comes around? Are you have you already got people in place? Are you looking for people to beta test it for you? 

Ross Hartmann  42:03

I’ve got a couple in place, but I am open if you think that you are a good fit for this and you think he could provide some some great feedback, then I would definitely be open to it. Yeah. 

Emma Dhesi  42:13

Okay, cool. Brilliant. So you that’s what you’re working on at the moment. And and yeah, so if people want to make contact with you, you’ve mentioned a few places there, but where’s the best place to get in contact with you?  Lovely. Oh, well. It’s been a pleasure speaking to you. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you so much for your time. 

Ross Hartmann  42:51

You too Emma, this was just fantastic. Thank you for having me on. Really appreciate it. Your website is such a resource. And I’m excited for what you’re doing in the future. Helping writers so much. So thank you. Thank you again. 

Emma Dhesi  43:03

Oh, thank you. Well, that’s it for this week. I hope you find it useful. If you’re interested in becoming a part of a safe and friendly community of like minded writers who want to write their first novel, go to my Facebook group at emmadhesi.com/turning readers into writers. I can’t wait to see you in there. You can find the show notes for this episode and all the others at emmadhesi.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining me and I can’t wait to get to know you better soon.

If this interview with Ross Hartmann was useful, you’ll love:

• Thomas Emson – 6 Weeks To Write Your Novel – EMMA DHESI
• The 10 Day Novelist Lewis Jorstad – EMMA DHESI
• Accountability is key with gothic novelist Jo Buer – EMMA DHESI

Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.

Interview with Sylvia Hubbard

Emma Dhesi  00:00

Hello, I’m Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you’re brand new here, welcome. And here’s what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you’ve been up to until now, if you’re ready to write your book, I’m ready to help you reach the end, I focus on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book.

Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com where you’ll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started. Before we dive in, in this week’s episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write. In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life.

Now, you might be thinking that you don’t have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn’t think you had. If you thought writing always involved a pen and paper or a keyboard. Think again. If you thought you needed at least an hour at a time to write your manuscript. I help you reframe that you won’t be disappointed. Get your free copy of 30 Top Tips to find time to write by going to emmadhesi.com/30TopTips Okay, let’s dive in to today’s episode.

Before we delve into the show, I just want to give a big shout out to Joe Brito who is the latest Patreon supporter of the show. It’s with the support of Joe and others like her that I can continue to bring the best possible podcast I can for you so that you can keep on learning. Keep on improving. Keep on being inspired until you write your first novel too.

Okay, let’s find out a little bit more about today’s guest, Sylvia Hubbard, Detroit author and founder of Motown writers, Sylvia Hubbard has independently published over 50 romance suspense books. As an avid blogger podcaster, Social Media Manager and digital strategist, Sylvia has received numerous awards and literary recognition for her work, pull us has had seven number one bestsellers. She’s also a speaker, literary encouragement, doula and busy mompreneur expert.

So let’s dive into the literary world of Sylvia Hubbard. So Sylvia, thank you so much for joining me today. I’m really thrilled to talk to you.

Sylvia Hubbard  03:04

Thank you. It’s an honor to be here. I appreciate this. It’s been like a, you know, the time change and everything. And I got worried. Oh, like when you said 3pm. I was like, wait, she said this. But yeah, thank you so much here in Detroit. We love. We love talking to anyone. So.

Emma Dhesi  03:24

I know from what you’ve told me that you’ve been waiting for a long time now. And I wonder if you could share with our listeners. What was the interest in writing and how you got started? 

Sylvia Hubbard  03:35

Well, it was a funny story. It actually my mom told me the story. I had invited her to one of my first workshops and someone had asked that same question. And I was like, Oh, well, I just love to write. And my mom was like, No, that wasn’t it. So according to her, she said, I used to lie to her so much.

When I was about six or seven, I just would just tell lies and blow it out of proportion and everything. So after whipping me within an inch of my life, she would turn around and tell me to write the lie down on paper, and then come back to her and tell her the lie again, read the light again. And then I got another button. So what she was doing was actually teaching me storytelling, because initially you write down what you originally thought.

And then on the second time around, you write you you are writing when you’re coming back again, the second time, you’re adding the layers of the story, the plot and everything. But it’s also in human nature that I learned that it’s not the lie that hurts us. It’s the depth of the lie that someone did to us. It’s the deceit that they did.

That’s why it’s like a white lie or gray lie or black lie. Well, it’s because of the depth of the lie that really hurts us as human beings and it just all encompass great storytelling. So I stopped lying, because it was rather painful. So my pain became my pleasure.

And my mom said, I would write all the time, all the time, every day, all day, because that’s where I got my joy from.

Emma Dhesi  05:17

So when did you take that make that step from writing stories to get out of trouble writing stories for a living? 

Sylvia Hubbard  05:27

Well, I want when I gave birth to my daughter, I was still writing, but it was kind of like, oh, I’ll just write, you know, get into a corner and just right.

But then when I held my daughter, my first daughter in my arms and looked in her eyes, I realized that I could not be a hypocrite, and raise this child and say, you know, do your dreams, follow your passions, do your goals, when I wasn’t doing that myself, I was not going to raise her to see me in that light, I want it to be able to show her how to reach her dreams and goals and passions, and show that it leads to the profit that she wants to get to. So that’s why I, you know, took that step. And, you know, I had to, you know, it was it was a drive in me as always, but it was kind of like she was the key to the car that could be driven.

Emma Dhesi  06:25

Insane, It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many women, myself included, and and other women have met as well. Having a daughter particularly can be that catalyst to suddenly realize that this other person is depending on you to set the example and, great! for our children. And so then it makes us lift and raise our game as well through today.

Sylvia Hubbard  06:49

Keeps you on your toes, because she is a smart, she’s smart as a whip. So I had to, like think three steps ahead of her at all time. So, but it just made parenting and writing even that much fun because her seeing my success.

I know, it’s so cool, because when she was 16, I was actually honored, I was surprised by an honor I didn’t realize I was gonna get I just brought her along with me. And then they called me on stage and gave me this wonderful honor of being a mom, being a writer. I was just like, Whoa, and it was just so great to see, you know, her looking at me getting something and receiving an award and being recognized for like all the hard work, she was crying, she started crying. I started crying. I was like, oh my god. So it was a great thing. But yeah, it is it’s awesome.

You know, when your children can see your success and follow it through and say, you know, they were there from the get go. And that’s really awesome to know and give, that’s a legacy I can leave towards my children. And they can pass that down to there. So..

Emma Dhesi  07:56

Well, congratulations on your awards. 

Sylvia Hubbard  07:58

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Really awesome. But yeah, I just I always tell myself, I just want to make my mom proud. So I might as well do the same so.

Emma Dhesi  08:12

So you’ve won an award and then for being a mom as well as being a writer, and you specialize in romance suspense, right? wondered if you could differentiate for me what the differences between say pure romance and then pure suspense. So for example, I know that in pure romance, there’s got to be that happy ever after ending? Definitely. Is that the same in this hybrid? That you you write it?

Sylvia Hubbard  08:37

Yes, it’s actually it is the same, you still have to stick to the rules and, and, and boundaries of each. Each each genre, you still have to stick to it no matter what. What it is, is that you’re weaving it together. So where the suspense in the romance even though in the as you see my hands, they come together, they crossover but at the same time, they’re taking place at the same time. So you’re basically taking that happily ever after.

And that that suspenseful element of either I’m going to kill somebody I am going to poison somebody, somebody is not gonna make it and you’re constantly driving that home, you know, to the reader that they might not make it even though I promised you I happily ever after. So it just keeps you more on the edge of Yes, this romance is happening all through the book, but hey, somebody’s gotta die. So when people ask me, What do I write and I do say romance suspense, they always say what does that mean?

And I say, Well, I make people fall in love and I kill somebody so hard to get a date you know, but But yeah, it It works out. So I guess yeah, it’s really fun, I guess because I’ve always loved romance. I started reading it when I was illegally 12. But and then it was just that suspenseful element of, of where the danger comes in. And I’m putting my characters in precarious situations that, you know, hey, I didn’t mean to walk through this door.

But now that I did, and my life is changing, let’s see where this takes me. So and then living in Detroit, you just never know what could come from it. So that makes it even more fun. That becomes even an extra character in the story, because the majority of my stories do take place in Detroit. So it’s, it’s kind of fun.

Emma Dhesi  10:47

Now, I don’t know Detroit at all. So tell me a little bit about how it comes into your stories?

Sylvia Hubbard  10:52

Well, a lot of people know Detroit as being the number. We are always at the top five murder capital of the of the country. 

Emma Dhesi  11:02

I didn’t know that, kind of Motown and the music industry and cars.

Sylvia Hubbard  11:06

Yeah, yeah, it is. It’s wonderful, and cars and music and everything. And but we also always at the top five of the top, murder in Detroit, in America, and then we have the highest urban African American population. In the United States, that means more black people live in Detroit than anywhere else in the United States. And that’s basically because of cars and music.

A lot of people of African Americans came here because of that, and situated their lives here and have been here, like, for long period for forever, to me, is forever, you know, so we have a very large population here. So that brings a lot of drama, a lot of a lot of variety and statuses and everything.

So I can mix up stories where, you know, someone, you know, in Detroit, you know, one block, it could be, you know, the houses are worth 15,000, the next block, they’re worth almost half a million. Okay, so that’s the variety of characters we have in Detroit, and you can’t find anything else here. We also have the largest in our vicinity, we have the largest Arab American population in the United States.

And Michigan itself has the largest militia. So you know, bringing all those elements about, you know, our love my location and where I am. I mean, in Michigan, it’s just a wonderful because we have, we actually experience so many different seasons, a lot of people come here to camp vacation during the summer, because there’s so many regions in Michigan alone, that you can go to at one time. So that’s pretty cool…

I need to put that on my, Michigan on my destination. This one, when I’m able to travel again.

Sylvia Hubbard  13:05

It’s very Yeah, it’s very diverse. You are going to find a lot of things to do here. I love this state. You know, I love you know where I am and everything. I don’t do hot well, and I don’t do too, too, too cold. Well, so that kind of you know where I am is great. And we’re right off the lake. So we you know, we’re never going to experience a drought.

Emma Dhesi  13:29

Yeah, sounds like a wonderful setting for your stories, lots of different characters, lots of room for the drama that you have in yourself so…

Sylvia Hubbard  13:39

Yeah, so it gives me even more variety to the romance suspense element, because I can throw those in. And a lot of I think a lot of writers forget that, like your surroundings can be a character in the story itself. And it can provide even torture plot. And I remember one story I wrote, I had to shoot the guy five times in the chest, and I actually called my dad to find out, how could I shoot him five times and get him to live?

And my dad actually knew the answer right away, which was scary. He was like, he would have to be near the river about November when the temperature is about 37-47 degrees. Once he drops in there, his temperature drops immediately down to 50. And that slows the bleeding and I was like thank you daddy you so awesome.

Emma Dhesi  14:31

I am not going to ask how you knew that, I am not going to ask 

Sylvia Hubbard  14:34

I didn’t ask either, I was… I didn’t want to know. But thank you, I used that in the story.

Emma Dhesi  14:45

Tell me about your stories talking about stories I know that your most recent book is Black innocent, Innocence, Black Innocence and that’s book number five in your black family series series, right? So can you tell us about the series and even you know about This is the number five, Book number five.

Sylvia Hubbard  15:02

So I’m always writing especially for my male characters, there’s always something different about them. And I got really hung up on revenge in and just something kind of off about the black men, there’s just, they always have something off about them something either a weird fetish, or they had one of them had multi personality.

One of them was extensively fat, he had been like 800 pounds, and then he got reconstructive surgery, and it was always like an image problem for him. So it was like these black men always had like something behind them a past that. So I always say in them crazy needs love to…

Emma Dhesi  15:54

Persons, like you delve into some quite deep, quite deep issues there, you know, multiple personality disorder, kind of Yeah. dismorphia. And so that’s, that’s sounds like that’s an interest to you, as well as kind of and how multifaceted people are.

Sylvia Hubbard  16:14

Yeah, a lot of things that people, especially an alpha males, that when alpha males come on the scene, and especially in a romance, he’s perfect. He’s always perfect. He always has, you know, he’s strong. He’s this, but then I like to look at the background, how did he get that strong? You know, we as women, we always think, Okay, well, we go through the fire, we do this.

And, you know, we stand strong, because we got kids, and we can birth babies, you know, we can drop a baby and still go to work the next day, you know, we’re Oh. But I grew up with my dad. He was actually my primary, my parents got divorced early, and my dad actually took custody of us, which was kind of weird back in the 80s, and 90s, for a male to be a single parent.

And it was it was like, three girls and one boy. So you know, he was actually raised to read. Yeah, so it was it was interesting to go bra shopping with your father, you know, you’re always had these experience of going shoe shopping or something. You know, they will always that would be the first question. They always ask me, how did you go bra shopping with your dad?

We’re and it was for me, it’s normal. You know, that was my normal, but growing up with him, and he’s just I think they broke the mold when I made my dad. But getting that strength and finding that strength. I, you know, you see the man you love. And then you wonder, where did it come from? How did he get like that? You know, how did he you know, how is he so smart?

You know, how does he think fast on his feet? How is he he manages to do all of this. So with me when I create no characters I want to I explore that depth. This is how they became like this. This is why they have this foundation. I think men are like houses. how they how they are built is how strong they become. So I love to explore that foundation in the story.

And because that is what we fall in love with. When we see a man we fall in love with the house. But then we really, we really fall into that foundation because that foundation is what secures us and what makes us like oh my god, this is a man.

Emma Dhesi  18:37

So lovely analogy.

It’s all about the journey, says trailblazing author Sylvia Hubbard

Sylvia Hubbard  18:41

So yes, that’s why my black men are when I go into their head, I’m kind of just overwhelming because they’re so they they come from a long line of don’t mess with me. I have to seek revenge for what you did. And that’s where this story. Book five, it’s a standalone or like companionship book. So these are all brothers and cousins, all the black men, so they all have their own story.

So you don’t have to read the whole series in order to pick up blacks innocence. You can start the series wherever you want. But Tyler Black is the the fifth book in the series. In this story, it involves actually it starts with Lauren who we as women plan the perfect life and that’s what Lauren did. And she just wanted you know, the perfect life the perfect husband, you know, kids and the the cars and the garage and the white picket fence mansion and everything.

And she built the dowry. You know in the 21st century. She built her own dowry. She took out loans to have like this $250,000 wedding. She saved herself. She was 32 years old saved. So from marriage, because she was going to marry this lawyer. And that’s what she wanted, until Tyler comes into the picture and like destroys everything, then then all to get revenge on her husband to be. So it was all a plan to get unfortunately, Lauren got in his way.

And that’s where that’s actually where the story starts. Okay? After he destroys her what she’s left with that, that’s actually the three first three chapters, and then the whole book is just about Lauren, finding out when God when you make plans, God laughs number one. Sometimes the life that you plan is not the life that you need. And number three, you know, love is really complicated.

And you know, it’s not just, it’s an easy way to get to the door. But opening up that door and getting through it is even harder, and you really have to want it. So that’s the whole three things about this book that people will walk away from.

Emma Dhesi  21:12

What sounds wonderful, I’m intrigued. I’m really intrigued. 

Sylvia Hubbard  21:17

Thank you. It was fun, it was fun to write.

Emma Dhesi  21:22

I’m gonna change tack just a little bit and ask you about your your writing life. So I wonder, you know, do you because you’re right, so prolifically, you write, because you write both fiction and nonfiction, and you’re a blogger, and you do a moderating.

So do you? Do you with your novels? First of all, do you plan them? Do you plot them in advance? Or do you write by the seat of your pants? Do you kind of find out what’s happening as you write?

Sylvia Hubbard  21:51

So I am a pantser? with a with a drip a plotter? I throw myself in the fire, they’d be like, Okay, wait, we need a plan. So, so someone asked me how, what order do I come up with it. So usually, I’m always having characters in my head. It’s kind of like that movie glass, where it’s chairs in my head. And somebody you know, is sitting in a chair.

And if I see a flaw in someone, in real life, I’m like, Oh, I love that fault. Or I love that characteristic. And I throw them to one of the characters in the chair, when I feel that one of those characters in the chair is fully there, and I’m talking to them daily. I’m like, Oh, I like you, you’re nice. I, here’s your name, you have a great name, oh, my god, you’re just amazing, then I find somebody in another chair that they would absolutely hate.

And I bring them together and find a plot. And once I find the plot, that’s when both of them can hold the light. And I can start writing. So that’s how my writing process actually goes, which I know is strange. But that’s literally how it goes.

Once I’m holding and got them on paper, then that’s where the plotting comes in is that I need to make sure I’m hitting their three arcs, you know, and I’m going through the pyramid of making sure we got an up and down and then small up and then down. And then, we are coming to a resolution. So and of course during all that I’m weaving basically two stories together of romance and suspense, all the while trying to work out their personal problems, and the major story plotline.

Emma Dhesi  23:41

It is a lot and I think new writers in particular, that feel that they should in inverted commas, have everything worked out, it all feel kind of this nice, smooth line where they know where they’re going. But in reality, it does often start as a kind of a jumble in your head, and you’ve got all these different ideas. And especially if you’re adding a sort of Venn suspense element in we’ve got to drop clues and things. Right.

I think it’s always reassuring for other writers to hear that. Even for those who are as experienced as yourself. There’s, there is still that jumble to begin with. And then writing as you’re plotting, it slowly begins to smooth out and the path to be clear.

Sylvia Hubbard  24:25

It comes clear. And it tells us a lot about writing things down in the comments. You know, I’m often like, because sometimes well now I’m using Google Docs a lot. So I have a comment thing where I can just actually add a comment on the side and say, okay, don’t forget to add this there. Or I can go back and say, Okay, I know I needed a plot point there.

So it’s all it’s it. I tell people to write everything down even if your your whole notebook is filled with, you know, post it notes and everything right, those little notes that You know, hear in your head or warnings, you know, write them down, even if they come to nothing, write everything down. So I’m constantly You know, I’ve got notebooks I’ve got, you know, journals, I’ve, I’ve got online notebooks for every story, you know, just to kind of keep up with it.

But once they get the light, I’m, I’m there with them. I’m like, Okay, look, we can start the story. And it’s kind of like just cooking, you know, you put the ingredients out, and then you don’t know what you’re really cooking. But those ingredients look good. Let’s see where this goes. And then once you start adding everything together, you’re like, Okay, now I know.

You know, and I know a lot of OCD writers where they have to write every little plot point down. And I’m like, by that time, I’m exhausted, I don’t even want to write the story. So that’s how I know I’m a, I’m like a 95% pantser you know, with a 5% plotting element in me because I do have to in my, you know, in my suspense thing, you know, like he said, know where to put the red herring, know where to you know, where to reveal the, the Big Bang moment or the crap hit the fan moment.

You know, I do have to keep all of that in mind. And I think that’s why I do kind of write romance suspense, because with the romance is just, it’s too easy. For me, it’s just like, bam, bam, bam. But writing the suspense actually keeps me in line, you know, it keeps them you know, me, keeping that and then I have to take longer turns out that romance and ignite more fires, you know, and, you know, create more passion in order to Okay, we’re gonna wait for this suspense element to come before I reveal this big love scene.

So yeah, it keeps me in line and then makes it even more enticing to the reader like, okay, When are they going to get together? When is he finally going to say I love you? Or, you know, When is she gonna find out about the baby, you know? So yeah, that I love that I love mixing the two because it just makes the book even spicier and makes the book even just fun to write.

You know, it just, it makes me excited. And so then I just know, it’s going to just make the reader even more excited. I’m like, Oh my God, this looks so good. And then the reader is like, Oh my god, that was amazing. I was like, I know…

Emma Dhesi  27:28

You have great fun writing your stories. And that’s another thing I think is important for writers to remember is it is meant to be fun, we do this because we love it. Oh my god is… when you take it so seriously, and it’s so high and it just let it go let it flow a bit. And so giving us a lovely, lovely reminder, I listeners can’t see Sylvia space here, but when she’s talking about lights up, what a beautiful smile.

So it’s great that you’re giving us this lovely reminder. So you your 95% panter or 5% water and then in your day to day life. And you’ve got three kids as well a new.

Sylvia Hubbard  28:07

Three that I know of…

Emma Dhesi  28:09

Okay. Three that you know that.. how do you put all this together? How do you find the time to work on your fiction, your nonfiction, or blogging? You’re older you’re being a parent all those things? How do you on a day to day basis manage that?

So I wake up with an attitude of telling myself there’s you can’t give yourself an excuse to fail, That’s the first thing I tell myself. Really, I you know, after I pray that I can I can make it through the day. Then because when the kids were babies, it was kind of like I had to set a routine with them. So then they understood if my fingers were on the keyboard unless you were dying.

Don’t bother me. If you’re dead you can wait. And that sounds cruel but after three kids after the third one you’re like you know what? they bounce you’re good I’m fine. So like they got into the the knowledge of knowing that this made me happy. So in order for you to be happy you have to make mommy happy.

So that’s the second rule is let the people you care about who are close to you know that your writing makes you happy and if they would like to see you happy let you write understand that this means a lot to you. So the kids were the kids after a while understood. You don’t want me to be a mommy, you really don’t want me to be.

So do what I already told you to do. But like yeah, just handling. Doing writing when I Could that’s basically what I would do is when they were little I would write when I could. So I had wireless keyboards all the time. journals, I would always have notebooks with me, I usually carry whatever story I had, or I was working with, I carried it around with me.

So even I would print it off and carry it like a baby. Because what it was, it was training me, it’s kind of like when you do have that Baby, you’re constantly putting the baby down to walk, because you’re tired of carrying it. So every day, you’re like, Okay, let’s walk, let’s walk, we’ll carry in that book with me, as it got heavier and heavier, it became a burden, I’d have to get these bigger bags, as the book got heavier and heavier.

And it was kind of like my constant reminder of, you need to work on this book, let’s work on this book, let’s get it done. So then we can get a lighter bag. So that was my, my incentive to always be writing on my books. The blogging came easy, because it was just, you know, I know, I needed fodder for my site, and just sharing my literary world with my readers and seeing them, you know, light up or writing articles about my knowledge or doing videos, about you know, what I learned today, it just became easy for me to do more and more as I shared, I learned from myself, because it’s kind of I’m not saying that the way Einstein said it, but in order to be a master, I needed students.

And, and, and you also, in order to understand something, no matter how complicated is, you should be able to explain it in layman’s terms. So a lot of times, like, I would try to explain it to my kids, you know, I’d be trying to explain it to my five year old, you know, I’d be like, do you understand? And you’d be like, no, as like, okay. So that’s why a lot of times people say, Oh, my God, you have awesome analogies.

And that’s because you try to explain something to a five year old. You will definitely understand how it works. I’m gonna tell you that.

Emma Dhesi  32:03

I love that, yeah I need I have three kids as well, I think I need to start explaining to them my writing processes and see if they can make sense to them. Because Yeah, you do explain things really, really well. And yeah, as you say, with the analogies, I really like the analogies that you’ve been given. So thank you to your children for that, that’s great.

Sylvia Hubbard  32:25

Yeah, that please don’t tell them that. 

Emma Dhesi  32:29

So how old are you children now?

Sylvia Hubbard  32:31

Well, now they Oh, good, Lord, I gotta think about it. Okay, so now the oldest one, she actually had just had her birthday. So she’s 24 years old, because I’ve been writing for 20 years, actually. Yes, she’s 24. Yep. There isn’t writing published for 24. Yeah, she’s 24. So I’ve been published for 20 years, I was like, oh, and the sun is wanting to, and the youngest one is, I think 19. 

Emma Dhesi  33:00

Okay, so they’re all grown up now. So they don’t demand as much of your attention now, you know, they don’t need you to help or get fed and all of that. So how do you? How do you structure your day Now, in terms of your writing?

Sylvia Hubbard  33:18

I actually can write more. That’s, that’s, that’s the only good thing is that I can write, I can write a lot more. But what I’ve now done is because I was writing a whole bunch while they were growing up, now I’m trying to structure my business a little bit more more organization in my business. So I’m doing a lot more blogging, a lot more literary doulas encouraging people and everything like that.

And but then I am actually structuring my writing where I don’t have to wait until they go to sleep and use 10 minutes of the time to do it or, or you know, waiting for them to come out to, you know, sports session and just typing in my car or something like that. Now, I can actually structure my time where I can sit for two, three hours, do the writing that I want, you know, that I enjoy.

And then during the day, I can go ahead and do the business part. So that’s the only that’s the only difference is that now I can structure my time. Back when they were growing up, it was like, Okay, let me get 10 minutes here. Let me get 30 minutes there. And I think as as women, we think, Oh my God, if I don’t have those three hours set time, I can’t write, but I’m going to tell you 10 minutes, you can do at least about 1000 words.

So if you take you know, 10 minutes here, 30 minutes here, you know, a half an hour here, you’ve your you know, hour and a half or something like that, you’ve done two hours of writing that day. So don’t think about it and that’s what I started to do is really break down time in terms of like not just even minutes but seconds like if I can just get something done in this in these seconds, that’s enough for me. And then when those more free seconds, you know, they take naps, they go away for just a moment.

They go bother their sister, brother, you know, so I can get things done, you know, we can do a lot in that 24 hours. So stop asking for more time in the day and start doing stuff in that free time that you have.

And in those seconds in those minutes, and I can I can tell you, it does help, especially as we become busier and busier and busier, you know, start finding out where you are wasting time, and then replace it with the things that you need to be doing that day. So that’s what basically I would do, because a lot of people say, Well, how did you get? How did you, you know, you know, manage three kids, you were a single mom, you’re working 40 hours a day, you’re running an organization, you know, you’re doing speaking events.

And it was it was just those little pieces of time that I would just take, and I unimaginable amount of things could be done in those little pieces of time. I used to tell my kids, everything takes 10 minutes, everything, I don’t care what it is, it takes no more than 10 minutes to do.

And you just have to figure out how to do it within that 10 minutes, you know, and that’s what, that’s how basically what I would do is everything, I would just look at everything and says, Okay, we’re going to try to get this down to just 10 minutes. Could be like, Oh, no, it takes hours to do it. No doubt. No doubt. We got 10 minutes, and we’re gonna break it down, and we’re gonna get it done.

So and that’s how basically now I rule My life is that if I need something important done, I just tell myself, literally Sylvia, you can do this in 10 minutes. And then the chore doesn’t seem so bad. You know, like, hey, that’s 10 minutes, I can do that. Bam, bam, bam.

Emma Dhesi  37:02

Yeah, I totally, totally agree. You don’t need those two hours. But you do just need to make use of the time that you’ve got. And 10. As you say, it’s amazing how much you can get done in 10 minutes? Absolutely. I think it’s a great philosophy.

And I think it’s a great one to have passed down to your kids. So I hope they take that one on board. And they’ll….

Sylvia Hubbard  37:19

Oh, they do. It’s fun. Because my son, he actually he’ll go to jobs and everything and he’ll get stuff done. Like right away. They just give them something. And he’s like, mom they want to move me to assistant manager.

I would like you just been working here, mom. He said, yeah. He said, I work really good. You’re welcome. You’re welcome. I taught you back that that’s me. That’s me.

Emma Dhesi  37:42

You taught there a little bit. So about your sort of philosophy around writing. And and as we’ve mentioned, you know, you’re a blogger, you’re a fiction writer, a nonfiction writer, you have podcast.

And and I know that you’re also in literary encouragement and do that. What are some of the ways in which you help budding writers? I’m guessing an element of it is understanding that they can do they can do it in 10 minutes at a time?

Yeah, definitely. But also, I take the approach, because there’s so many people out there trying to tell, you know, writers and authors how to do things and everything. What they’re not doing is teaching us how to tell people how to help us. You know, and a lot of times, that’s, that’s where writers get, you know, we don’t know how to talk to people, we can talk to our characters all day long.

Give me a blank piece of paper, I’m good. But trying to say, Okay, this is the kind of marketing I need, or this is the kind of writing I want to learn about. I really get into that. And so I’m encouraging them by talking, helping them talk about this is what you actually do need to do in order to get to that goal, you know, and then constantly encouraging them.

Because usually, it’s not me trying to get you to your goal. It’s you already having the answer to get there. And what I’m doing is just telling you as a doula, how to do it. That’s what doulas usually do. We already know how to have a baby. We just need somebody to tell us to Okay, breathe.

And just let yourself do it. So that’s why I usually use the word doula because I’m already finding out that you already have everything you need in order to succeed. You just need someone there to help you get to where you need to be and use the tools you already have.

Because there’s so many people saying, Oh, you have to you have to get this or you have to get this and then we’re like, Okay, well, I don’t have the money to do it. Or I know I don’t have the time to do that program. But you really already have the tools you need to get to your goals. You just need someone to say Okay, you already know how to do this, let’s just put this into this kind of format, so you can understand it.

My mom says people learn different kind of ways and trying to get people to understand the way they learn is what you need to do. So that’s basically what I am there for is to help you help yourself, help me get to where you need to be.

Emma Dhesi  40:25

I think that’s so true. I’m certainly one of those people who, particularly when I’m learning something new, I just want that more experienced person to tell me my do this, then do this, then do this, then do this. And then I’ll do it, making a few mistakes along the way. But that’s how how I learn best is by doing it, I just need that bit of guidance. So I would be up for that.

Definitely. So not only do you do that, not only are you a literary encouragement, do that, but you are the Finder of Motown writers and the Michigan literary network. And I’m wondering what prompted you to to find those organizations? 

Sylvia Hubbard  41:03

Well, I’m, I’m going to be honest with you, and say it was kind of like a selfish endeavor. So when I first got started, I was kind of I was a single mom, I was a beginning, a single mom all over again, because I was in the middle of a divorce.

And a lot of authors were out there. And this was back in 2000, when self publishing had just started to boom, you know, and a lot of them wanted you to buy their book, go into their program, do their workshops, you know, do the they wanted me to jump through hoops, you know, and stuff like that I didn’t have the time, I didn’t have the money, but I want the knowledge. So I had to sit back and realize something, writers or authors love to talk about themselves.

I was already a journalist, I’ve been a journalist in high school and for college and everything like that. So what I did was I created this website called Motown writers, quote, unquote.

And so on this website, I would tell authors, hey, you could get a great interview on here, and I’d feature your book, get a link to mine, and they’d be like, Okay, and then I could ask them whatever questions, I want it and learn whatever I want it to know, because authors love to talk about their books and what they did and how they did it. So I started this website, I put like a subscription button, you know, if you want to update and everything. So for a year, I, you know, I was doing all these interviews with all these authors and everything.

And then I went to this conference, and this girl, you know, she had this, you know, we had to put down like what group we were a part of, if you were a group, you’ll put it down there. So she had Motown writers as her group. And I was like, you’re a mix of Motown writers out there. And I thought it was another one. And she was like, Oh, my God, this is the most amazing group in the world. It gives you all this information. She does interviews, and she puts articles up, and she’s just so wonderful. I was like, I want to join this group.

When I get a membership. She was like, Yeah, but it’s free. Because all you got to do is just join and you get these updates, and it’s just so informative. And then she’s like, yeah, you just go to Motown writers.com I was like, Great, that’s, that’s my website.

Emma Dhesi  43:36

Amazing.

Sylvia Hubbard  43:41

Oh, my gosh, I go back in my my back, boy, you know, your dashboard. I see like, 75 people have signed up. And I like I you because I was just posting these articles. But there was only because, you know, I kind of just, you know, wanted the information.

I really wasn’t caring about the analytics or anything. People have been subscribing leaving comments, everything, you know, oh, my God, this is great. I was like, wow, I guess I am an organization now. I better keep it going mine as well. 

Emma Dhesi  44:15

She’s not when your blog started as well is that when you began blogging?

Sylvia Hubbard  44:19

Basically, what I was doing was a lot of B2B blogging, but it was like kind of more comedy at everything on the B2B but on here, i was able to you know, to share information because it was so much, i was interviewing authors i was realizing there was a lot more information, but we more directing authors towards they need it to be because there wasn’t information about publishing a book or marketing a book but if you go through business, small business there was a lot of information about marketing a book or copywriting or how to tell a story, engage customers and those were what we needed in order to be an authorpreneur because no one was telling us how finding these business articles or finding PR sites to, you know, say, Okay, this is how you get in touch with the media.

This is how you, you know, find a way to get on radio shows, you know, because of for businesses, it was bam, and over there, you know, they were showing small businesses how to create a business on the internet, but they were not showing authors have Matter of fact, it was so many when I started getting an ebooks before everyone else, New York Times bestseller, like no one will ever want to buy a ebook and read it on the screen. That’s the silliest thing. And she told me to stop, she’s like, stop pushing that stop pushing, being an ebook author.

That’s not something to brag about. Like, seven years later, she was calling me saying, Okay, do you know anything more about the ebook stuff? And I was like, I’m glad my mama raised me Christian, because I wanted to tell her where she could ask her question too.

So you were really one of the pioneers, one of those very early days of self publishing in.

Sylvia Hubbard  46:19

I loved it, I bought my house ebooks bought my house, I don’t care what nobody said, 

Emma Dhesi  46:23

You were part of the gold rush.

Sylvia Hubbard  46:27

Right, it was all my goodness, it was Christmas time was the best time it’s still good. I think we’ve lost sight of like how to do it. But it’s still, it’s still a very profitable time during the holidays, to get book sales, you just got to, you just got to know your audience, and you got to just, you know, be where they are in order to get those sales. So I mean, this is a different way to do it.

And that’s why a lot of times I’m writing fake nonfiction books about, you know, the 21st century marketing, I’m really pushing that because the same things we did back in the 20th century was back in 2000. You know, it was it’s not the same now. But it’s just, it’s almost the same, but with a different twist, you know, it’s cherries on top.

So you have to take the same practices, but apply 21st century marketing techniques to it. So that’s basically it. So don’t think that it’s long dead. It’s just, it’s just a different door down the same street. So that’s basically how you can say.

Emma Dhesi  47:33

I like this, I like this. So that was a great way of learning. It was very setting up those two networks, those two groups was a really great way of bringing the learning to you. It’s very entrepreneurial of you. It’s not, it’s amazing that you’re an entrepreneur. And so if you could offer, you know, one piece of advice to a beginner writer who’s starting out today, what what might that be?

Sylvia Hubbard  48:01

Starting out today, I would say, never stop. And I’m giving you the same advice Judith McNaught gave me I waited four hours in line for this advice. Literally four hours in the coal to get up there and ask her, you know, how do you finish a book and she said, Just don’t stop. That was her only advice. I wanted to hurt her because my feet hurt.

But taking it in, I realized, it’s not just in your writing career, but in this whole endeavor of your literary career. Don’t stop just because no one showed up. Just because no one bought a book just because you know, you, you feel like you can’t get to that next point in your story. Don’t stop, just keep trying to write the book, keep trying to publish the book, keep trying to market the book.

Because in the end, it’s not about it’s not about the failures that you you had endured, but it’s about the journey that you took. And that’s where it where the payoff is going to come in. And that consistency to keep trying keep doing and making it happen is where the success is going to come from. Is that consistency to constantly keep going. 

Emma Dhesi  49:30

I love it. I love it. Thank you. And so what are you working on at the moment because I know that you are consistent and you keep going and you keep working on right now.

Sylvia Hubbard  49:41

Well, now I’m working on that my next is called essence divine. And actually my readers of my sneak readers got a preview copy. This is their Christmas package that they’re all getting.

So all of them signed up. We have a group on on Facebook, so all of them signed up, sent me their addresses, knowing that I won’t stop them to buy a book. But they got the first like two chapters of the book.

And that’s my new endeavor for 2021. Is that story, basically about a man who’s in a coma. But surprisingly, he has two kids and don’t know about it. So that’s gonna be fun.

And so you’re just there? Where can listeners find out more about you and your books and your doula work online?

Sylvia Hubbard  50:37

So I have my website is SylviaHubbard.com And that’s where I’m usually, you know, showing, you know, what I’m promoting, you know, what I’m talking about my literary life, and so forth. And of course, there’s motownwriters.com they can always go there.

And even if you aren’t from Michigan, because usually we promote Michigan authors, because our goals now is to get writers to their literary goals. But we do promote Michigan authors, because we want more people to know about the essence of Detroit, more people to know about that, you know, there’s a writing essence here, and you know, we create unique stories.

But I also dev out information about writing, promoting and marketing all the time. We have Facebook groups, so because we meet virtually now, virtually now, but we have experts from all over come in and share their knowledge. We have a Facebook group for meltdowns, and I have a Facebook group for my readers group as well, where we talk about my stories.

They talk about like other writers that are like me, and we discuss all kinds of things, because they have a lot of questions for me. Whoever is really weird, that’s, it’s that’s the most I think that’s a, I think that’s, that’s the hardest part about being an author is talking about your imaginary friends. Because we’re always told stop talking about your imaginary friends.

But like, we’re authors, we have to, because that’s, that’s our bread and butter. So we have to fight that knowledge of we have to talk about them. So..

Emma Dhesi  52:15

That’s a great place. Well, I should link to all of those in the show notes for anybody who is interested. Well, Sylvia, you’ve been a joy to chat to you. Thank you so much for your time today. 

Sylvia Hubbard  52:26

Thank you. It’s an honor to be here. Thank you for asking me. I was so excited. I was like, Oh my gosh, and it’s in the UK. I felt so International. I felt almost Beyonce. I was like, somebody knows me. I’m across the water now. I can’t be stopped. I’m unstoppable.

Emma Dhesi  52:47

You are I have a feeling you are.

Sylvia Hubbard  52:50

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Emma Dhesi  52:57

Thank you for listening to today’s show. Now if you’d like to find some more ways to write, you can download my free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to find time to write by going to emmadhesi.com/30 top tips.

If you’d like to connect with me, you can find me on Facebook at Emma Dhesi author. And if you’re enjoying the podcast so far, please don’t forget to leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. It really does help new listeners find the show and of course I appreciate your support.

Until next time, keep writing

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Emma Dhesi

Emma writes women’s fiction. She began writing seriously while a stay at home mum with 3 pre-school children.

By changing her mindset, being consistent and developing confidence, Emma has gone from having a collection of handwritten notes to a fully written, edited and published novel.

Having experienced first-hand how writing changes lives, Emma now helps beginner writers find the time and confidence to write their first novel.